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BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

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BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:44 pm

Before I post, this is for AFTER 2014 season, but, we need to look at rookie status.

A couple of years ago, we changed to allow guys to stay down the whole year after they crossed rookie thresholds. But what has it done?

Teams are now prospect farming like crazy and punting entire seasons in order to preserve rookie contracts from starting.

Had they been required to call up guys after they reach rookie limits, they may be encouraged to let them start the seasons up on the big club and buy FAs to have vets around them.

Now, teams are free to build in their image, but the competition of the league is suffering as a result.

Had rookie changes been what they were in the past, many teams would prob have these good young players on the big club and felt compelled to try getting good FAs to surround them with.

But as it stands, a number of teams are just gonna punt 2014.

Some sort of change should be discussed going forward.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by expos on Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:28 pm

Agree
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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by tsandler on Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:57 pm

I think it's too early to assume teams are punting 2014. Speaking for myself, I know I'm going to promote quite a few minor leaguers once I have a better idea which players are guaranteed major league roster spots. There are reasons to sit out free agency other than trying to tank. Mainly the fact that the money involved is insane this year, especially for a very mediocre free agency class. Mediocre class + market flooded with cash = bad time to buy!

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by HELLFISH on Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:25 pm

@tsandler wrote:I think it's too early to assume teams are punting 2014. Speaking for myself, I know I'm going to promote quite a few minor leaguers once I have a better idea which players are guaranteed major league roster spots. There are reasons to sit out free agency other than trying to tank. Mainly the fact that the money involved is insane this year, especially for a very mediocre free agency class. Mediocre class + market flooded with cash = bad time to buy!

I agree here.

I like the rule that way it is now once the season start up to GM to call up, should not be force to call up. If MILB reaches Min, then we know 100% that he will be either drop or on team 40 man the following season.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:30 pm

Well said San Diego. Well said.


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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by thephilipbrown on Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:18 pm

In agreement w/the previous posts. Crazy FA $ is one reason to stay away. Also, when a guy crosses the threshold, he has to be called up the next season. I don't think an extra 2 months is going to make a difference in the level of competition.

I keep some guys down b/c they don't play consistently. When Profar & Olt were first called up in 2012, they never played b/c Wash decided Mikey Young was a better option. Basically, I would've lost 2 years for 57 combined PAs.
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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:31 pm

Tristan,

It's not just about FA. The pattern over the last couple of years has been for farming teams to make less than an honest effort in competing. In fact, it's tilted so much in getting ready for the following year. Now, I understand a slow build approach n this solution isn't a be all end all, but if teams knew they were gonna have to promote a guy during the year, maybe he's brought up earlier n more of an effort to have a better team around him is made. 

The point is, when you can count 6 teams who do not look to be some sort of factor, you start to wonder what could be done to spur competition. This is one of them. I know teams are selfish n do not want to lose any cheap years when they do not 'have to,' but with 6 cheap years already, I do not think it's too much to go back to how it was before the change if the end result could be another step in creating more go honest competition.

This plus performance scale cap or whatever could help a great deal. As it stands now, the incentive for farming teams is just not there. If/when it's time for my rebuild, I would 100% be doing what some of y'all are- as it's 'smart' way of playing system- but I hope when it's my time to rebuild that the system isn't like that, as I do not wanna be tempted to go that route.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by tsandler on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:28 am

That all makes sense, but I don't think this proposal would change much of anything. I will try to think of more effective solutions.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:38 am

Well, the direct result may not change much, as not all prospects come out n kick ass- it takes time for development- but if you were anticipating a guy being up when he clears the rookie threshold, perhaps that indirect result of putting a better effort into having a more ready team around him is made.

It also would lessen the years of control teams have on guys so that they are either extended or hit rfa or fa sooner, which could result in better classes over time. 

I also think we need that salary scale Tim suggests or Erics suggestion of teams below .500 lose cap since real life losing teams lose revenue.

I've seen many leagues; and we do have the best thing going. I am just always hoping to further enrich the experience. Tightening the league up a lil would go a long way to producing better competitive efforts. 

But yes, if you think of anything, please share. You're a bright guy and shouldn't save all your ideas for the TB Rays, with whatever you're doing to intern for them.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:51 am

I dont know.  We could just as easily make a rule that no teams could sell their picks.  Teams that trade and sell their picks every year so they can get all the best players make it hard for the rest of the teams to feel like they have any shot whatsoever at competing.

This rule change will do very little to increase competition.  Very little, eventually players have to be called up.  It only delays the process by one year, if that.  Which 100% makes sense.  Players usually are MLB ready before they are fantasy ready.

But frankly i dont see a problem.  The FA class this year didnt go too cheap.  A few players slipped through the cracks and got a little better deals but most of the players got outrageous deals.  

Eventually the rebuilding teams will try to win and when they do, then people will be trying to change the rules on rookie contracts and extensions because they hoarded so many prospects.  

A salary cap scale would be fine with me.  Thats very realistic.  Put something together for a salary cap idea based on rewarding or punishing teams based on results.  That has a chance at getting ten votes.

But this rule has no chance at getting 10 votes and would do very little anyway.  Good discussion though.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:12 am

It would do a lot, actually.

And it figures you would bring up how I sell picks to get better players, to help justify the obvious self-interest of being able to keep on delaying guys, which is a non-sensical thing to do, but hey, more power to you.

I was talking to Dan, he told me to post and get discussion. So here I am. This discussion is far from over, so assuming 10 votes would not happen is a bit premature.

While we cannot enforce who plays who, having guys be required to bring up rookies once they cross thresholds does a lot. Even if they are not super impactful, it helps the league as a whole.

Even if somehow you are not contending (your team is good, so whos to say how it will do this yr), if this were in place, then midseason when guys like BillyHam, Xander, and Gray are doing well, then you would have them up and most likely playing in matchups that would have an affect on the playoffs. However, this would be in future years, so this is only an example as I am obv not proposing this yr.

Integrity of the league and competition is what I care about. Yea, I have 'whored out' to get players n cash, but I do in the manner of competing. And I am not even saying prospect hoarding is wrong. I am saying that if they are brought up when they cross thresholds, it is better for the league as a whole. Given that 6 yrs are cheap/controllable, 'sacrificing' one when they are over limits does not hurt much, when the reward is a better league.

As it stands now, teams are punting entire seasons! You may not see a problem with that, but I do. And as someone who co-founded this league and cares much about it, I will at least attempt to figure out how to make it better.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:19 am

It's not nonsensical at all.  Take some responsibility.  I've heard plenty of people talk about the impossibility of competing with your team.  So you have done just as much to decrease competition as anyone. 

So let's not go around trying to punish everyone else.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:22 am

The difference is, I make an effort to compete.

And, I believe when I dealt Trout/Harper, I posted that I did so to 'spread the wealth' some around the league, as I felt bad with how much I was able to acquire.

Having rookies be required to get called up is not punishment. But, funny that you see it as that..

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Xezus on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:29 am

Are we talking about removing the AA part? or at anypoint during the year if they pass rookie eligibility they must be called up then?  I feel like removing AA doesn't do too much,  Id only have 3 extra guys on my team this year, 2 of which i don't feel would make any impact at all.

If we are talking about during the season that they cross the threshold i would be 100% against that.  Getting your call in the middle of the year (in real life), crossing your threshold with weeks to go and losing a whole year off the contracts just because you swung the bat so many times or got destroyed in enough IP would be completely unfair to a building team.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:38 am

See, that's what prompted the change to begin with.

Maybe just get rid of the AA part???

It may not do much, but at least guys who are over reg limits, but not AA, cannot be stuck in milb a whole other yr.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:38 am

Yea the only impact player I would have to call up is Sonny Gray, maybe Jarred Cosart.

Bogaerts got 44 ABs last season and Hamilton had 19 ABs so regardless, this rule wouldn't affect them.  

Again, this rule wouldn't change a whole lot.  

And believe me, I've thought of calling up all three regardless of this discussion, especially Hamilton.  But I want to make sure they are for real before calling them up.  Everyone thought Aaron Hicks was for real with a beastly spring training last year.  Now he's sitting on my 40 man squad and he's still in the minors.  A lot changes in the season.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:39 am

I first posted meaning the entire thing, but I see/understand your point, and points Dustin made here n PM.

I do think a good compromise would be to eliminate the AA, as I think that is what seems too much.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:41 am

@DmanofGod1 wrote:Yea the only impact player I would have to call up is Sonny Gray, maybe Jarred Cosart.

Bogaerts got 44 ABs last season and Hamilton had 19 ABs so regardless, this rule wouldn't affect them.  

Again, this rule wouldn't change a whole lot.  

And believe me, I've thought of calling up all three regardless of this discussion, especially Hamilton.  But I want to make sure they are for real before calling them up.  Everyone thought Aaron Hicks was for real with a beastly spring training last year.  Now he's sitting on my 40 man squad and he's still in the minors.  A lot changes in the season.


Yea, it's the AA guys that I guess mean more.

See, this kinda thing- and Darrin's point- is exactly why I wanted this discussion, as I wanted to see things from different points.

I honestly do not want to punish, but I just wanna see more teams caring/trying/competing/etc.

I can see how Xander/Billy could need more time and if they were required to be up after they crossed, it could suck if it happened with like a week to go.

But, the AA guys like Gray who are nice, sitting a whole other yr seems a lil too much.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:54 am

And alright,

now that I am a bit more calm and the 'personal' stuff is out of the way and we are onto more fruitful discussion, can we discuss or get a vote on elimination of AA?

I've 'bought' the other arguments about not forcing rookie callups once crossing thresholds, but I think the elimination of AA would go a long way to helping- even if it's just a handful of guys each yr.

Thoughts??

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by HELLFISH on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:57 am

the league anit broke, working fine. the rule is fine it is never been abused. you have said it your self watch out for so and so's team in a few years. it a cycle and we are on four years into this great keeper league. talk about this in ten years when we have had a large sample size to review.

I rather have a rule that states you need to have a 40 man roster when you start the season, not this allow teams with 30,35,38 guys. if you have a 40 man roster then you make team spend at lease the Min on some players, then when injury or bad luck happen guys have to cut and resign and spend a little more (make Moves). what the point of the 40 man roster? i will would even compromise with you. by saying if your AA or A player reaches the Minmium AB or INN and you don't have a 40 man, meaning you have an open roster spot then you are required to call him up. but if your carrying a 40 man then your allowed to keep player in minors until the following season??

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by ericdm70 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:05 am

Help me, help me. Please lift the 3-bid minimum, so I can attempt to field a 40-man roster. I think it is time.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by HELLFISH on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:14 am

LOL!

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by HELLFISH on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:15 am

when there was no 3 bid system it was the wild wild west! so many bids we could not count the $$$ being tossed around

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by ericdm70 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:23 am

I don't mean eliminate it altogether. But use your judgement when you think it is the right time.

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:51 am

I like your compromise. 

It's a compromise of the AA compromise that came out of Dustin, my, philly convo.

And yes, I've stated how teams will be awesome. This isn't to curtail that. After taking it on the chin, it's gonna be exciting to see them rock. This is so they use guys without leaving them in AA all yr when they're good n viable players-- that'll help competition. 

But so we're clear- as your proposal would be:

Can leave guy in AA to begin yr. 
cannot buy fa of same position before calling thAt guy up

Correct??

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by HELLFISH on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:09 am

my rule is simple you carry a 40 Man Roster, you can stash MiLB for that year they reach Min's.

You have 39 on roster and MiLB player reaches Min, you have to call him up period

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:10 am

Yea.

That is better.

So this is dependent on 40man roster.

Makes us use our spots...or have to bring up the guys!

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:13 am

Eh, not fond of that.  Hard to keep track of and this will be a very demanding rule.  Going around forcing 16 guys to carry 40 dudes will be very time demanding for everyone.

Our league is time demanding enough.  What's more important is fielding 25 guys

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by HELLFISH on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:17 am

if we carry full 40 Man roster I just feel it will make GM's work and think during the year. also makes you spend $$$ not much if you play it right but does make you spend it.

with that would would also propose the following.

Allow to sign 5+ guy to minor league deal.
any offer under 1M per year to 5+ guy would be a minor league deal. when you post it you only get one remaining bid (not 3). If you win bid then that contract is a minor league deal and you can move to AAA with out have to clear waivers. but once you add him to yahoo you that contract will then have to follow our 5+ vet rules (so you would have to clear waivers to move to AAA).

you guys can help improve.

and again this would be some if we get the min GM to agree would go to vote and not go into rule if passed until year 15 (next season)

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Re: BoS Rookie Status Rule Change Idea (for 2014 offseason)

Post by HELLFISH on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:20 am

@DmanofGod1 wrote:Eh, not fond of that.  Hard to keep track of and this will be a very demanding rule.  Going around forcing 16 guys to carry 40 dudes will be very time demanding for everyone.

Our league is time demanding enough.  What's more important is fielding 25 guys

D it does not force you to carry 40, it only forces you to call up Minors if you have open spots. you want to stash kids that extra year then yeah carry 40 spend some $$$ make moves when needed. you can have lets say 35, but know that you can have up to 5 MiLB that could be moved up that season.

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