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'15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:07 pm

@nostratimus wrote:
Integrity wrote:Here's my idea:

Eric's team is exempt from drafting
MY WHOLE TEAM is in the pool.

I join the other 4 teams in expansion draft.

If that's not sacrifice, I don't know what is!!

That's not quite the sacrifice JI bc you gutted your futures for one more year of glory. So getting a new expansion team is not that much different and in fact, lets you start fresh! Not saying it works in your favour but it's definitely not that much of a sacrifice either.

And... If expansion even happens, all teams would be subject to it. Eric shouldn't get an exemption just bc he had a plan in place. 15 other owners have their own plans and expansion may interfere with their plans just as much. This is not aimed at you, Eric, bc I know JI made the reference an suggestion.


Well, Eric would never accept it anyway.

But my offer is genuine and valid.

You may say that I wouldn't be that harmed going from what I'd keep to expansion, but you'd be wrong.

Look at what I'd have left over. If I took an expansion team, I'd only get a fraction of that back. And the extra free $$$$$$$$ on cap doesnt mean too much if everyone- non exp teams included- have so much $$$$$$.

If you look at what I have now and could possibly have later, I would say that it would be a sacrifice.

But either way, I am willing to put my team where my mouth is.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:13 pm

But, let's steer the convo back to your concerns, as my team is a sidebar and distraction to the discussion.

My apologies for putting that out there.

I'll always look to make BoS better tho as this league is my baby or well co-baby (altho JB left me to raise her with y'all!)

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:16 pm

@nostratimus wrote:I'm not completely against this but here are my thoughts:

1) like Phil,  I'm very happy with 16 team league and 20 doesn't make me jump with joy. I left a 24 team league for a reason. 

2) I thought we agreed (possibly even voted but can't remember) that major changes to this league would need at least 2 years to implement. This gives owners time to plan. Proposing this expansion idea and then saying it will prob happen in 2015 is not sufficient time for most teams unless you're team looks like AZ in which you're all in for 2014 and then the cupboard is bare for the future. Another problem is that this happened just after the major FA frenzy. Doesn't really affect how I spent my money but other owners may have spent more had they known next year was an expansion year and they'd lose their unprotected players. Again, one year's warning for expansion is ludicrous.

3) I can't remember very well but expanding to 20 just bc we have 4 guys waiting in the wings is not enough. It's nice to know that there are 4 guys waiting who can replace an owner for whatever reason but in the last 4 years, we've had to replace many owners. Things have seem to stabilize this past year but one year of stability is not sufficient to believe we're anchored down and ready to expand. I'd rather have 3 guys ready to commit and get on a wait list then adding 4 teams, and then needing to find 4 new owners in the next year or two for whatever reason.

Again, I'm open to listening to all sides but do feel like expansion for 2015 has too many issues.  On that note, what is the argument FOR expansion? Aside from having  3-4 guys ready to go?


Quoting Tim's post so it'll be here on the current page for y'all to address.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by tsandler on Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:04 am

Sorry, just saw this. I don't have too much to add, but I agree with Tim's points.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by thephilipbrown on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:36 am

I will cite Tim's concerns as to why I'm against this. 

I've set my team up to have waves of talent coming up in the next few years. Expansion negates all that work. 

It is an OPINION, not fact, all great leagues expand. I've run a league since 1998 and not once have we considered expanding. We've brought in replacements but never expanded. Matthew Berry routinely refers to his Fat Dog lgs, in existence since the late 80s. They haven't expanded. So to say all great ones do is merely an opinion. Heck, why stop at 20? Why not just go all the way to 30?

This is not a threat or ultimatum, but you'll need 5 owners if this happens bc I'm out. I have absolutely no interest in playing in a 20 team league.
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:09 am

I'd be okay with waiting two years Tim.  That gives everyone a chance to adjust.  Two years is a long enough time to accumulate the team you want.

Remember, you would only lose 6 players!  And that's after you protected your 15 best assets.  

There is a lot of talent on everyone's teams.  The talent can easily sustain 20 teams.  I'm fine with sticking at 16 but I would enjoy going to 20.  If we wait two years, that's fine.  Plus I like the idea of bringing more people to the forum.

If the league decides to go to 20, then that's fine.  If we have to replace Phil, that won't be a problem.  He's set up his team nice for the future.  We won't have trouble finding an owner for Texas and if the wait is two years, that's more than enough time to find 5 guys instead of 4.

Not trying to minimalize Phil but it's not a show stopper if a someone simply doesn't want to play in a 20 man league and leaves.  

We aren't trying to push this through either.  If a few guys don't like the idea, then we won't.  We value everyone here.  

But I think a 20 man league by 2016 to ease Tim and other's concerns is a good goal and exciting for the forum.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by nostratimus on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:19 am

Yeah, more talk is needed here, esp with everyone else's input.  We just need to make sure this is right for the majority of the league owners bc if we go ahead and expand and then guys don't like it, we're not reversing all that happened.  I think we can all say that we've had one solid year without the drama that came before.  

I'm all for improving the league and changing things to make it better and more enjoyable.  However, I think this chatter kind of took off between you guys, which I can understand bc it's exciting if you're for expansion.  It also kind of concerned others, like me, who are on the fence or against it, when the talk shifted to "it's likely to happen next year".

Anyway, maybe it's  good time to take a poll (not vote) to see if the 16 guys we have are:

For it
Against it
On the fence

This could dictate how future discussions go and the direction we want to move.

Just a thought.
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by thephilipbrown on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:27 am

I know it's not a stop down if I leave. I said it wasn't an ultimatum (though I guess by defn it is). I was just letting it be known a 5th guy would be needed is all. I'm not mad; I just lack the desire or time to play in a 20

I'm not against improvements.

And to answer Tim's poll: against it
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:32 am

I think you can guess who put ..."it looks like its gonna happen."

This was not my idea and i believe my team stands to take the biggest hit. My team is not made of the 15 greatest assets but built on 40 or more solid assets. I believe my team will be the first to lose its players in an expansion draft.

But i am for this idea if we can find a common ground. I think going from 12 to 16 was wildly successful and i believe the talent is there for 20 and it will bring fresh faces and a new challenge.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:46 am

Contrary to belief, Dan put the "it looks like this will happen," not me. Lol

Though if i had separated the threads, i prob would've too, given the way the talk was going.

Seeing Dustin n philly willing to make sacrifices for a better lg was very encouraging to me.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:26 am

Also, a whole yr (this season + early offseason period) is PLENTY time for teams to adjust and see how their milb guys develop.

I do understand we may end up waiting til 2016, but if we all knew well in advance, there is plenty of time to adjust.

One more consideration is potential FA classes, as new teams would be highly active in FA. I have not taken an extensive look at the 2015 vs 2016 class yet, but I do know that MANY nice guys are avail in the 2015 class.

In any event, I hope when people post their thoughts, concerns, and what not, the BIG PICTURE and greater good of the league first is looked at, as opposed to any one individual team.

And PB, when I said, 'all great leagues expand," I meant like MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, etc. Not other fantasy leagues. While we are a fantasy lg, the 'fantasy' is to operate like we're a 'real league of real players,' hence wanting to expand, grow, and always perfect our league.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:30 am

Phil, its totally understandable that you simply dont want to play in a 20 man league.

Thats nothing to get angry about. Some guys may simply have no interest in that and thats okay. We just need to see if its more than just one guy.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:40 am

And I agree that we need to get that vote up to see how people feel.

I still want us to do a sort of Mock Draft, so people can get an idea of how it'd be for the league as a whole.

Remember, it's not just protecting 15 and losing your next 6 best assets. It's protecting 15, losing 2, pulling some back, losing 2, pulling more back, losing 2.

With the lone exception of NY (as he cleared the decks), there is more than enough excess talent to make the league pretty good at 20 teams.

As Dustin said, it'd be fun!

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:37 pm

I`m really neutral on this. I`m in a couple of 20 teamers and they are fun. It is a different animal than 16 for sure. If we go to 20 great, if not great also. I know the owners that JI is trying to get in if we do expand and I have to agree with him. I feel they would be very active productive owners based on how I`ve seen them play in other leagues.

 Phil, If this  expansion does pass I think you would be making a serious mistake by leaving and not being able to watch your team perform after all the hard work you`ve put into it. Just sayin
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by London (Kiefer) on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:53 pm

Im on the fence with this
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:59 pm

Canadians are always on the fence cheers
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by itssamman on Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:56 pm

I usually don't side with Phil, but I'm with him on this.

I'm probably going to quit if we expand to 20, not fair to all the teams that took years building up their farm, why are they getting punished now?

I mean if this expansion was for maybe 3-4 years down the line, then that can be considered, but not anything within that.

CBA agreements usually don't take into effect until at least anything over 3+ years.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:04 pm

Fair points.

2016 is prob the best bet, all things considered. Anything later is too far down the line. 2 years is enough.

It is encouraging when 2 teams who have worked for their farm (Dustin/Darrin) are excited about this.

On another note, I usually find when owners are threatening to quit, they are looking for a reason to.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by itssamman on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:26 pm

Not threatening to quit, just don't want to be part of something that I don't support. 

If I wanted to quit, I would have quit ages ago. Plus knowing how I am, don't you think I would just straight out told the world when I don't want to be part of something? When I don't like something I usually am one of the first and few to speak out. 

Maybe some other people that threaten to quit are looking for an excuse to quit but thats not me, c'mon you should know this Johnny...

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by expos on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:30 pm

I like the idea of expansion and two years notice is a tremendous amount of time to make deals, signings, etc to get your team ready for expansion. 


You could always have 15 keepers (any combo of player milb or MLB) and 5 additional spots reserved for players with no MLB experience. 

If you want to keep more than 20 prospects then that's a problem you will have to solve through trading.
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:30 pm

That's why I am surprised you even mentioned this.

Caught me totally off guard, man.

You have always been to take a position and be firm. And to look out for league issues/etc.

Even hearing the 'I may quit' totally shocked me.

Don't want you to go at all, but if you're not happy, then I'm sorry.

I wish we can just get a vote on this to see how everyone feels.

But either way, seems like 2016 is when it'd be done, as the tide seems to shifted.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by itssamman on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:33 pm

Wait so 2 years is already decided? 

I think we should vote on how many years down the road if 20 expansion gets passed.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:35 pm

Nothing has been decided.

I am just saying that it seems that if/when we do vote, that is how the tide seems to be shifting.

Initially, the talk of a 2015 expansion gained a lot of steam and we ran with it... prob a lil too much.

But after many concerns, it seems 2016 is making more sense.

Dan has yet to conduct a firm vote though.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:37 pm

We need 10 for Expansion.

Then Idk how he would do the 2015/2016/2017/2018 type vote.

Seems like 3 firm NOs of LA/TEX/NY with TOR leaning NO.

I am not sure about anyone else, as not everyone speaks on these posts.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by itssamman on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:37 pm

Yeah should get a vote up soon

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:45 pm

Well i would hate to lose both Phil and Sam.

I say have a vote and it needs 10 out of 16 to pass.

But you only get to vote if you dont quit if you dont get your way lol.

What i dont get about your argument Sam is that you dont think its fair to the teams that have been building through the draft. But you arent one of those teams.

We can speak for ourselves lol.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by nostratimus on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:47 pm

That's the prob with this talk!  

1) It came out prematurely
2) It started off as a suggestion, if you want to call it that and then quickly snowballed into it's going to happen with only 4 voices doing the talking
3) Im with Sam and Phil on this…it's not the idea that he wants to leave but more the fact that he's happy in a 16 team league and wants no part of being in a 20 team league.  At 20, we're talking 120-160 players deeper.  In the 24 team league I was briefly in, it was way too deep where your bench guys are irrelevant and for that matter, it took too much time for me to research a bunt of guys who were previously drafted  in the 20th round.  JI, some guys just don't want to be a part of that and to say they're quitters is unfair. 

I'm still not saying I'm against expansion but everybody built there team a certain way and everybody is entitled to their opinion about how this affects them.  I would be 100% against this too if:

1) I didn't want to be a part of a 20 team league
2) I joined this league with a long term goal from the start, built up my farm system, only to have expansion talks take away my hard work.

Expansion and getting bigger is not necessarily going to make this league better…or worse.  We can all agree that it's working at 16.  Teams are not over saturated with talent, like when we were at 12.  It's fun right now. 

CAN SOMEBODY SET UP A POLL AND SEE HOW THE 16 MEMBERS OF THIS LEAGUE FEEL?  If there's not overwhelming support at this time, we cut the crap and explore it again in a few years.  All this talk right now is premature.
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:57 pm

Yea, we're talking in circles.

I just thinking anyone saying 'quit' is is being unfair to those of us who are looking for ways to improve.

I agree this took off too fast, though. And we wanna hear everyone out, etc.

I took more exception to Sam mentioning quit than Phil, cuz Sam has been here from the jump, in on important decisions in all leagues, and never took a 'look out for myself' type of position. About Phil- if we're being honest- has had an apathetic position in all leagues he's been in. Not faulting him, because as you said, some people just wanna do their teams and that's it.

But you cannot fault us for trying to find ways to improve, especially when we know we're gonna be the ones who are here no matter what.

I dont wanna lose Sam or PB, as I talk to PB a lot and Sam has been around from the jump. But I know PB has gotten frustrated a lot over the years and if he ends up not being happy, will dip. Sam is 23, about to be 24, in NYC and just starting a new and busy career. At some point, he may dip out. 

But that is why I saw their talk of 'I may quit' as them finding excuses to dip out.

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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by nostratimus on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:22 pm

Sam is in NYC?  Ditching the west coast to be closer to Eric?
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

Post by nostratimus on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:23 pm

How about I send you 2 of the 4 pieces you want plus my expansion vote for Edwin?!!!!

Haha, jk guys.  I'm not russian and part of Putin's team or a member of the NYPD.  No corruption going on here.
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Re: '15 BOS EXPANSION TALK (looks like it wont happen)

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