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Akron TommyJohns - FINE

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Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by nostratimus on Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:07 pm

Max Pitchers on Roster: Teams cannot have more than 13 pitchers active on their 25-man roster.

 Illegal roster - $2M fine and $500k each day after. All fines will be retroactive if found at a later date.



Akron carried 14 pitchers as of Aug 1st.  Then continued to carry 14 pitchers in all of week 18 vs FV and wk 19 vs TJ (except for Aug.11).  In trying to investigate this illegal roster, I couldn't find posts related to weekly moves, DL stints (Soria), or FA moves (who was sent down for Marshall).  If you posted these moves D, let me know.  I just couldn't find them.

Fine:
Aug. 1st = 2M
Aug. 2-17 (minus Aug.11) = 16 days x 500k = 8M
Total fines = $10M.

Like all fines, if you have an explanation or disagree with the fine, please PM me and Dan and we can discuss further.

In checking with Dan, it seems that if you don't carry 2 bench bats, yahoo will allow you to carry more than 13 pitchers.  When I've tried adding a 14th pitcher before dropping another one in the past, yahoo won't let me do it and gives me an error message so a tip is to always carry 12 or more bats so you don't mistaken the number of pitchers on your yahoo roster.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:57 pm

I've been in army school.   Had no idea.  

I know RYU was on DL.  I just never posted.  Stupid Zimmerman screwed me.

This seems a bit excessive.  I don't like back dating fines.
If someone noticed a problem with my roster, then tell me.  I'm not trying to cheat.  I'll fix it right away.

All this to say, I'm not paying 10 mil

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:47 pm

I was def surprised to not only see Dustin fined (he's usually super focused on detail), but also the amount. 10 mil is def excessive and staggering.

With that said, PB was fined twice (I believe both retro) for 9 mil combined. And, although that was over two fines, the season amount of 9mil is a lot as well.

Also, the rulebook does say fines can be retroactive. With no outrage/change sparked from PB's situation and precedent, it stands to reason that the 10 here should stand.

However, we have and hopefully always will be a league that makes common sense type of judgment calls when different situations arise.

In this case, given that it seems more than one matchup was affected, it'd be cheap to just give $2mil and warnings for 500k every day after. Also, we need to be fair to PB if we change anything here.

Here is what I propose:

-Cap fines for a team at $5mil per season. That is a lot already and if teams have issues beyond that, we can look to replace.
-Lower this fine to $5mil to reflect that new Cap.
-Lower PB's team fines to $5mil to reflect the changes as well.
-Have a discussion on whether to keep backdating or not. I see where it can be kinda shady (if someone doesnt alert anyone), but also see how it can be necessary if it has affected multiple matchups.

With all of that said, Dustin has acknowledged making a mistake and provided a reason for that possibly happening. While we always say 'letter of the law' for things, we can use this situation to make a change for the greater good of the league, which would still fine him a good chunk of money, but also save PB from his excessive amount as well.

 But, these are just my ideas/suggestions and I will leave it up to the powers that be to make the ultimate decisions. After my issue on the veto'd WC/AZ trade, I realized that the people in positions to make these decisions need to be given the respect to make and enforce them.

I just do not see how we lower this without addressing the PB situation. But moreover, we should look at this as a league thing and come up with the correct policy moving forward and accept it, even if that policy will be the status quo.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:56 pm

I have no problem paying a fine.  I'll take responsibility for what I did wrong.

But 10 mil is out of control.  I've already sent PMs out.  It's shady that the fine comes the day after the roster was legal again.  Like someone was watching and waiting for me to actually put RYU in the actual yahoo DL slot before the fine was levied. ..all the while tallying up the fine day by day when I had no idea.

Backdating fines is the dumbest and shadiest rule in the league.  If someone has an illegal roster, alert them fine them and then fine them for each day forward that they don't fix.

So shady this is.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by Ballbasherz on Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:15 pm

I agree with D here. Back dating fines is purely bad business. It`s not like the cash goes to something good. It`s funny money. If an owner has an illegal roster warn him then fine him after 24 hrs if problem isn`t fixed. This deal of going back weeks/months looking for mistakes is a form of communism for crying out loud. Like I said it`s not like the money is going to a charity  or something good like that. All it`s doing is pissing off owners. I`d be like D too and tell you to shove it only in more explicit words. Stop this foolishness now   

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by thephilipbrown on Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:26 pm

Yes. Mine was retroactive as well. When I both won my matchup & far exceeded the min. IP. If Dustin's fine is reduced, mine had better be as well. 

I think the fines are both unnecessary & excessive but I'm also in favor of no roster rules anyhow. If you want to carry 25 pitchers, you should be allowed to. I don't see why you're forced to roster RP.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:42 pm

The only problem with foregoing all backdating is that illegal rosters affect more than one matchup. There needs to be accountability in presenting ones roster for the week. 

But 10 mil is obv an excessive hit. 

So there's a disconnect there. 

Perhaps on retro fines, we do the $2mil, but then X amount per matchup. 

Idk, but I'd like to think we can figure out a solution.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by expos on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:52 am

the rules are there for a reason..it's not difficult to follow them

but life gets busy and its pretty easy to overlook a roster error

I suggest that if the roster error actually made its way into the lineup..(i.e., I had extra SP or RP on my roster and actually USED that additional player in my lineup) then there should be no excuse..fines should stick

but if an error had no affect on the teams starting roster in any way...there should be a warning and then fine

(i.e., SP goes on DL and one is added but the sp accidently wasn't placed on DL..which I assume is the case here)

considering I am playing you this week and need a 16-0 win for a playoff spot.. I should have at least glanced at your roster!

with all that being said....I can see how a roster mistake can easily be made..especially for new owners...but I am not sure how a roster mistake can go a full month? (or close to it I assume based on the fine) without any roster moves being posted on message board...I thought we had to post that stuff...I was warned last year when I placed mauer on DL without a post

finally...I don't think this is the case here..because Ryu was on DL...but do we have anything in place to change scoring based on illegal roster? I have seen that if an illegal player was used (i.e. extra RP on team)...the commish would remove that players stats PLUS the next best scoring RP for that week retro-actively...albeit in a CBS league

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:11 am

I`m all for fines for having an illegal roster but going back weeks/months to fine someone for the sake of fining is totally wrong. If someone had an illegal roster 3 weeks ago and the 2 teams involved didn`t catch it so be it. Move on because you are not going to go back and edit the rosters and possibly changing the outcome. Absurd.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:14 am

Good point. 

I suppose it is also on the opponent to make sure his counterpart is legal or not. 

I just see a disconnect all the way around in these instances. 

But it's also def unfair others are afforded a chance to correct, while others are just levied something heavy. But of course, there's also the fact that one infraction could have had more impact than another.

To me, this is why I've always been in favor of Commish Discretion, because even when we put stuff in Black n White, things are not always so clear.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:16 am

I've seen Dan get on here and warn people.

And let's be clear.  According to the rules, we are fined for having an illegal roster.  I DO NOT have an illegal roster.  This fine is for past mistakes which no one including me or the people I played against caught.

I'll take a fine even though I don't have an illegal roster but I'm with Mark.  After this, the process should change.  There should be a warning, then a fine and then a fine for every day it isn't fixed.  This is a free friendly league.  

And no disrespect to Tim but the fine/illegal roster position should be to find and prevent illegal rosters.  Not to just let them occur and them search through the whole season and fine appropriately.  And im 100% NOT saying you did that Tim.  I'm just saying that's what's happening.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by expos on Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:22 am

You can't ask an opponent to police other rosters.

It's not a tough rule. 3 bench pitchers. Have a legal roster with filled spots.

Maybe there should be a limit on fine amounts or have it in stages (1st offence max is 2.5m, 2nd offence 5m and 3rd offence unlimited although it would take many weeks to reach those limits) but having retro active fines is a great way to motivate owners to have legal rosters.

I agree, the point should be to have legal rosters and not search out the mistakes in the past...fines based on illegal roster occurrence will punish not those who made a mistake that wasnt caught for weeks but for those who are careless and have illegal rosters on numerous occasions.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:24 am

OK, first
I have siad it before "I Hate Fine(s)", but we have them. We hate paying them and we hate having to give them out. But I have feel with all Fine I feel both TIM and I have been Fair.

2nd, Warning was giving to everyone in general message to watch your rosters.

3rd, Yes, I agree we need a better system for fines, someone please come up with one.

with that said, the fine will stand with some change and no PB you will not get $$$ back cause in both your cases I gave you a break on the fine(s). on the first fine I only I applied the fine from the point that I reviewed your roster error and did not back date. on the 2nd fine I reduced it by 50%. and with that said Doug (MI) received the largest Fine in BOS history last year and he like a champ owned it!

ALSO to be honest i have not read all the above only Tim's and Dustin posting.

Dustin, I said at the beginning of this season in a general post that I was not going to warning GM anymore, hard enough to run my team, I was not going to review every roster and advise of errors on the roster. I call them Errors because I do not believe any of the fines in the past were by intent, but they are error and we must pay for them (Hey I Paid for One).

Dustin you do have an illegal roster cause you carried more Pitchers then you are allowed, meaning you can squeeze a one or two more starts in that week. Again am not say you did. and doing so is a double edge sward you can get more #'s but also hurt your era and whip with bad starts.

Tim is not to blame on this mishandling PART of the Fine. I caught the error on your roster, not because I was checking to see if anything was wrong but because I was thinking on going with a full bench of SP and no Offensive bench player. before I made the change I reviewed the roster rules and notice the 13 Max P,  "said to my self OH shit am i carry too many P(s) and that when I realized you always need 2 Offensive bench player to be safe with this rule. I looked at our match-up and saw that you had 1 too many Pitchers Dustin.

Friday morning, I PM TIM to review, (Tim away on a weekend Camping Trip was not able to review until Sunday Late night) and I told him that we would do it Monday (yesterday). I was tried from the weekend since my best friend had gotten married and it was a 3 day event. So, your fine should stop Thursday 8/14 (cuz Tim or I did not get a chance to ask you to fix the roster that friday) and you should not be fine for that day or any day after that.

So here what am going to do.

Fine:
Aug. 1st = 2M
Aug. 2-14 (minus Aug.11) = 12 days x 500k = 6M
6 @ 50% = 3M
3M + 2M =
Total fines = $5M

I think the fine is fair.

and again no one was watching your roster waiting for you to fix before advising TIM. I caught the error and PM Tim to review. Again Each Fine is looked at on a case by case bases. and dont kill TIM and I for having to do the ONE JOB we Both HATE!

I think in future TIM or I should advise GM that their is an roster Error once we know about it, but still review and apply a FINE for the Error.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:53 am

@expos wrote:the rules are there for a reason..it's not difficult to follow them

but life gets busy and its pretty easy to overlook a roster error

I suggest that if the roster error actually made its way into the lineup..(i.e., I had extra SP or RP on my roster and actually USED that additional player in my lineup) then there should be no excuse..fines should stick YES we looked at this, if there was an extra guy that was not use, no harm no foul. but in both match up all Pitchers were used. Again i think in error.

but if an error had no affect on the teams starting roster in any way...there should be a warning and then fine

(i.e., SP goes on DL and one is added but the sp accidently wasn't placed on DL..which I assume is the case here)

considering I am playing you this week and need a 16-0 win for a playoff spot.. I should have at least glanced at your roster!

with all that being said....I can see how a roster mistake can easily be made..especially for new owners...but I am not sure how a roster mistake can go a full month? (or close to it I assume based on the fine) without any roster moves being posted on message board...I thought we had to post that stuff...I was warned last year when I placed mauer on DL without a post Most of Dustin Move were posted i saw a few in RW or FA topic post. and he address the RYU, as just having a buzy weekend and not getting to it yet, which is not a problem. as long as it gets done.

finally...I don't think this is the case here..because Ryu was on DL...but do we have anything in place to change scoring based on illegal roster? I have seen that if an illegal player was used (i.e. extra RP on team)...the commish would remove that players stats PLUS the next best scoring RP for that week retro-actively...albeit in a CBS league
I could but won't, that why we have the FINES, I think if we reviewed each other roster a the start of a match up and said to each hey fix your bad roster in a PM, that would be nice. I for one really almost never look at the other guys roster. lol and this cause only by chance did I notice the error. I don't think doing this is policing each other but more like looking out for each other.

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:27 am

5M is fair

Sudbury had a great idea in escalating fine system.  We should look into that in the offseason

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Re: Akron TommyJohns - FINE

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