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FINE RULE REVIEW

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FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:41 am

POST her any Idea for the review of our fine system.

The one i feel should change 100%
is the filling in every Pitching roster spot during a match-up, I feel if your carrying a MIN
5 SP
4 RP
1 P
and you meet the Min 25 IP pitched you should not be fine for having a illegal roster. a GM could be playing match up and not need to fill every spot.

But if you don't reach the 25 IP then you will be fined the 2M for that week match-up.

Also

BACK DATING Fines.
it should be a system like for everyday we backdate the % of the fine goes up.
so base fine is 2M and each day we back date we increase by 5%.

so if the roster was bad for 10 days.
2M
10 x 5 = 50%
2M x 50% = 1M
2M + 1M =
3M fine.

so if the roster was bad for 15 days.
2M
10 x 15 = 150%
2M x 150% = 3M
2M + 3M =
5M fine.  

this is just my idea to fix.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:35 am

I think Sudbury s idea would be an easier system

Just make escalating fines based on repeat offenders.

2.5 mil the first time an illegal rosterm is found and $5 mil next and more and more.  Easier work for Tim.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:10 am

1st roster infraction = warning with 24hrs to fix. After that fines begin  @$2 then $1 everyday there after.

2nd infraction = automatic $4 fine and $2 everyday thereafter.

3rd infraction = your dumb ass is suspended for a match up and fined $8. no questions asked

4th infraction = You are booted from the league. If you are that stupid and don`t get it by now we don`t want you in the league.

5- There will NOT be any back dated fines. Whats done is done you are not going to change anything by doing it except cause resentment
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by expos on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:19 am

disagree...fines should be retro active...its not rocket science..5 bench players....max 3 bench pitchers...if you have an illegal roster its really no one's fault but the owner

perhaps you can have a MAX fine for 1st infraction but it should be retro-active..cant expect people to be searching through rosters..every owner should be responsible for their team

1st infraction - NO WARNING..WE SHOULD KNOW BETTER!!!

MAX fine 2M..same fine system we have now

2nd infraction - automatic 5M penalty and 8M MAX

3rd infraction - auto 10M
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:23 am

Doing retro fines is not going to accomplish anything. We all pretty much agree that there have been mistakes in the past. That is the issue here. Lets fix it and move on. Dwelling on what has happened months ago is counter productive.
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:31 am

On thing you keep on say months ago.

I think we only went back once for a retro.

in most case the backdate is only on the current error. we go back to the date the error began, in dustin case it was 2 match ups. we never went back to review his roster from the beginning of the season, could he have had other matchup were he had 13 Pitchers maybe, but we only review the current error. so stop with we go back, because we dont. we start at the error and work are way back to see when error started.

ME and TIM don't have the time to go back and review every roster.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:16 pm

Ok I`ll rephrase it to weeks ago. You say you don`t have time to go over rosters but appoint a henchman to do just that. Freakin asinine. I still don`t see the purpose of going back to monitor rosters to create fines, just makes no sense what so ever.
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:26 pm

As I suggested in other thread, cap fines at 5mil total for a season.

If someone is routinely messing up or not caring, we can look to replace them.

But, 5 mil is a lot itself. Heck, I was fined $2 n that has me double checking n all that.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:32 pm

I like Commish or Fine person discretion for backdating, as you have to consider how many matchups were affected and if there was any real benefit, etc.

I only looked at D's roster once after this was announced to see 14 P for myself, so aren't really sure if/how much he benefitted, as there was a Ryu DL issue I guess. But the point is to not only determine if there was an illegal roster, but what ramifications it may have had.

I keep saying there's a disconnect of flat backdating amount vs actual impact, and instead of black n white system, maybe do Discretion, with $$ based on matchups as opposed to days. 

One thing we should ALL be clear on, if there was intentional cheating here or anywhere, then removal is immediate. 

And since that's not the case here n most likely won't be in the next, we need to be fair n not excessive. There was a fair solution to D's case n hopefully our policy moving forward will be considered fair by everyone.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:38 pm

Forget about all this back dating stuff. You can`t unring the bell. I think with all the discussion now that there will minimal infractions,but if on does occur then levy a fine. Lets fix the problem now and stop worrying about what happened in the past. I agree with JI that $5 per year should be a max fine. Any more than that would be excessive and at risk of loosing a good manager.
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:04 pm

lol, if you think about it 5M is only 2.8% of the 175M CAP that not alot.

only feels like a ton since we on AVG only have 15M left.

look i hate fines! but they have to be there. I also understand they need to be fixed. as for backdating it is needed to be there to account for prior matchups.
some one can have an error that last 2-3 Weeks and your saying that should cost the same for a GM that had the error for only fews days? again it all depends on when we catch errors, and i should not have to say catch cuz am not looking to catch anyone, we need to have a the rule but we can all agree the 500K per day is a bit much.

maybe it should be 1M per match that we have to backdate and and 500K for every 24 hours the error not fixed once fine (2M) is posted or when GM is advise of roster error?



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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:32 pm

sounds fair to me..

but, can we institute a cap on fines per season? maybe 5, maybe 10?

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:33 pm

Accumulating fines through Backdating is an awful system.

What is the purpose of fining?  To make sure rosters are legal as much as possible right?  Can everyone agree this is the goal?

But this system doesn't accomplish that because it is in the best interest of rival owners to NOT report illegal rosters they find because every day they don't report it takes money out of the pocket of their competitor.  Not saying anyone does that.  Just saying that at it's core, this system does not encourage EVERYONE to take part in policing the league.  It does the opposite. 

And if an illegal roster isn't caught for 1 month, 2 weeks or however, it shouldn't matter.  All of us will say, I shouldn't have to watch other people's rosters.  Very true but why wouldn't you do it if it is in your best interest to do so.  If someone got a leg up on you and you just let them...well, some of the blame falls on you.  If you really wanted to win, you would monitor your opponent.  Again, the argument will be presented, this league is already too time consuming.  I shouldn't be forced to check my opponents roster.  No one is asking you to.  But don't be upset if they get a leg up on your either. 

It shouldn't matter how long the roster was illegal.  The fine should be a set amount.  That way it encourages EVERYONE to report it right away!  And if we have escalating set amounts ($2 mil first times, $5 mil second time...etc) then it also motivates the offending owner just as much.

Again, I take full responsibility for my actions but part of me thinks, WTF, I went two full weeks and no one noticed including the legal roster/fine guy and the people I played against...  Yea, why would they give a crap about noticing because this system gives them no incentive to do so.  In fact, it encourages them not to.    

I'm completely against ESCALATING fines through backdating.  Now, fining a set amount through backdating, i'm open to that.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:50 pm

It is def dirty pool if someone notices it, but waits until a later date.

Something also has to be said if an illegal roster affects 4 total matchups vs 1 or 2.

That's why I think Discretion needs to be in place.

Definitely fining per day backdated is ridiculous, but if one fine affected 4 matchups, and another affected 1, I do not see why the fine for 4 matchups should be the same. I think 2mil as a base for all fines with either 500k or 1mil per matchup could be something fair, depending on what the fine is about, etc.

But again, in my view, Discretion should matter. I understand most people like Black n White firm rules n regulations, but as we see, that is not always the case.

If everyone wants just flat $2mil once recognized, I don't have too much of a problem with it though. In that sense, maybe escalating fines could be the way to go with 2 mil for first infraction, 3 for the next, etc..

Would like to see some more opinions though, since it's always the same few of us!!

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Doug on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:36 pm

Ok, I'll chime in. Fines should be levied when discovered not past dated. Anyone get a ticket for speeding twenty miles before they were pulled over? Maybe repeat offenders need to be replaced if they can't justify why they haven't paid attention to their teams. That happened in another league I was in, where the LM basically said "I'm not allowing an owner who didn't make a roster move for three weeks to continue in the league". This was as the owner was pleading his case to stay. The integrity of these leagues depends on participation.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by nostratimus on Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:57 pm

Been away spending time with sister-in-law visiting us so have been busy the last few days.  Managed to check out Akron's roster and issue the fine.

I've read all the posts so here goes everything:

1) I agree that 10M is too much for a fine.  It's not my job to issue fines with discounts or make discretionary judgements.  I read the rule book, look at the infraction, and there's the fine.  I didn't write the rulebook nor did I decide on an arbitrary number for the fine.  It's up to Dan as commish to make a decision and he was very fair with how he handled it.

2) Some of you are mistaken that Dustin's 14 pitchers was due to Ryu not being placed on DL.  He had 14 pitchers for 3 different match ups.  Ryu was placed on DL only at the end of last week.  How much D gained from having an extra pitcher than his opponents?  No idea.  Doesn't really matter at this point since the situation has been resolved and it doesn't look like it will affect any playoff scenario.

3) Some have brought up importance of backdating.  It is important because if it affect the team's performance, it ultimately affects the standings.  "If" Akron gained 6-7 cats in those 2 weeks by having 14 pitchers, the standings and playoff race could be a little different.  Maybe not with the 7th/8th bubble teams but with seeding.  

4a) Some mentioned that Akron's competitors should be the ones looking out and catching his errors.  NO! It's not any other owner's responsibility to manage another team's lineup.  So all this talk that shifts the blame that other owners didn't notify Akron or maybe withheld info to rack up the fine is ludicrous.  Sure, it's bullshit if somebody is doing that to rack up fines but don't make it my responsibility as a playoff team to check 5 other team's rosters.  I make sure mine is not illegal, plain and simple.  If I make a mistake, I hope I catch it or somebody tells me. If not, the rules in place are there for a reason.  If the rules are too excessive, then make it an issue and brilliant minds will prevail.  That's what's happening now.

4b) Dustin's notion that he wasn't going to pay backdated fines because it's excessive has no basis imo.  Why?, because it has been in the rule book since inception of this league, that's 5 years!  Phil has been dinged twice with backdated fines so the precedent was set. Again, this point is moot as it relates to his fine since Dan resolved issue.  

5) New system is needed but fines need to be in place for accountability. It's this simple, if you read the rules, understand them, and follow them, you will never have to pay a fine.  There, don't want fines, don't break rules.  I don't care about fine system bc I know if I'm careful, I will never pay them.  If I do, then it was my mistake and I take it like a champ.

6) I too like the escalating fines proposal.  I'm not a fan of the max fine amount per season and here's why.  Not saying that this will happen but here's a scenario.  I get fined 5M and reach max for season.  I'm fighting for playoff spot or division winner and knowing that I can't get dinged anymore, set an illegal roster to increase my chances.  Later, I apologize and say it was a mistake.  I don't get fined because I've already maxed out.  Sound fair to you?  
Sure, it may never happen but gotta think of what might happen before they happen.  That's why there's a rule book.  To ensure everybody does the same thing and the playing field is fair.  When rules don't work, we discuss…this rule seems to not work I guess.

Alright, enough from me for now.
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:33 pm

Tim brings up a good point on not having a max fined amount. A very good point

Few other things

Poor reason for backdating = "You are just as likely to gain a disadvantage by having an extra pitcher but just in case you got an advantage, we support backdating..."

I've never been one to support..."Well it's in the rules and always has been so deal with it" If there's a problem, fix it.

I am for the league policing itself, not any one person. Not blaming anyone for not catching my fine earlier. I simply am against a system that encourages the league not to do so.






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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by thephilipbrown on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:18 pm

I'll repeat what I've already said: I am for no fines or roster rules. However, for reasons known only to God & broccoli, some of you insist on them. 

My suggestion is for it to be up to the opposing manager to catch illegal rosters. This way, Tim isn't the bad guy. If you get away with having an illegal roster for a week, you get away with it. If you get called on it, you pay a fine. If I have an illegal roster for a month but get called weeks 1 & 4, no backdating. I get fined for those weeks. 

If you meet min IP threshold, I certainly don't believe you should be fined. 

I highly doubt I'll ever call anyone on it bc I believe in individual strategy but that's me.
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by expos on Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:32 am

its a complete misconception that having additional pitchers doesn't help your stat line

if I sit one of my dud bats and put in giles

era 1.27...whip 0.88, 6 holds, 41k's with 6 BB..2 wins and no losses..that helps!!!!


sure...on a fluke game he can worsen my stats...but if I were to have this additional player in my lineup week in and week out..i benefit...no doubt..and all the decent teams have guys like this..SP who for the majority of the time win more games then they lose and have good ERA and QS in 80 percent of their games with lots of k's

its not like the extra guy you are throwing in is RA Dickey with a 4 ERA and a .500 record who gives up 30 bombs a game

having extra pitchers significantly helps your team...adds inn and removes risk of a fluke bad start

saying it doesn't help is statistically ludicrous...its like saying having Kawasaki at 2b instead of cano doesn't change anything..it could go either way..its not the case..additional SP or especially RP...helps your stat line

there has been 2 fines this year? both in my opinion were extremely obvious..

13 pitchers...12 batters...no empty spots..its very easy to figure out

if you play weeks on end with an illegal roster you should pay 10 million retroactive...if you do it for a couple days..the penalty should be extremely less
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by expos on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:04 am

not suggesting he should have paid 10M...just saying..only 2 illegal rosters all year..both were obvious..both were dealt with fairly..considering both owners agreed there was an error and had fines reduced


maybe our current system is not so bad..i know im changing my tune...but as I read the thread and consider the history of fines..its pretty obvious most owners will never face a fine..why not make it serious offence if its a mistake that is so easily managed by looking at your roster
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by johnscrn on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:07 am

I don't really have anything novel to add but here is how I would vote having read everything.

1. a set fine for an infraction and then something small like 1M for consecutive previous weeks with the same infraction. This shouldn't be enough to cause the loophole Akron saw(which would be impossible to catch someone exploiting). I want to win every week so I will make sure my opponent is following the rules; it is partly my fault if I don't catch it. 

2. if you are worried about two owners failing and effecting your season standings then add a 1M bonus for a whistle blower not in the matchup.

3. If not fixed in 24 hours the fine should start to escalate quickly.   

4. absolutely no season max

5. If you get to 25 IP and don't want to start a guy because of his match up you should absolutely be able to bench him. Big fine if you don't make 25 though. 

I don't really want to give monetary values, I am not confident I know how much 1M is worth yet....
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by Ballbasherz on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:17 am

This league is run very well. The problem I have with all this back dating is you essentially are accusing someone of cheating. Now you are attacking a mans integrity which is wrong on all fronts. I seriously doubt in this group that someone needs to cheat to win. If someone does have an illegal roster I truely believe that it was not done intentionally. 

 You guys are treating this like it`s a high dollar league. It is a free league and suppose to be a fun league but this stuff is going over the top.

If I ever get one of those retro fines for an honest mistake I`ll be outta here faster than you can say good by. I will not have my integrity brought into question by some power hungry managers. You guys better rethink what you are doing because you are walking  on a slippery slope.
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by johnscrn on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:25 am

and might I also add that if the fines went away I would vote for that also but I want to fit in with what has been done here Wink. I know I'm going to make an honest mistake at some point.
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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by DmanofGod1 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:44 am

Are you serious right now?  

Sit your dud bats for a RP?  You can't be serious right?!  Who would make that comparison?  Where you gonna put Giles in your lineup?  2nd base, util?  You know we have only 5 spots that a RP can start in right?  5.  No more.  And those guys play 6 games a week and unless you are God, it's impossible to predict when they are gonna pitch.  So trying to rotate a 6th guy in based on your intuition hoping to get that one extra inning a week is crazy.  You can have 10 batters and get two more extra relief pitchers but where you gonna put those extra guys. I'll tell you where.  On your your bench, cuz there are only 5 spots...that's where

You be talking crazy lol.  Stop that.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by DmanofGod1 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:57 am

@johnscrn wrote:and might I also add that if the fines went away I would vote for that also but I want to fit in with what has been done here Wink. I know I'm going to make an honest mistake at some point.

You seem really active and that's exciting to get a new guy like that!

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by nostratimus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:24 am

@DmanofGod1 wrote:Are you serious right now?  

Sit your dud bats for a RP?  You can't be serious right?!  Who would make that comparison?  Where you gonna put Giles in your lineup?  2nd base, util?  You know we have only 5 spots that a RP can start in right?  5.  No more.  And those guys play 6 games a week and unless you are God, it's impossible to predict when they are gonna pitch.  So trying to rotate a 6th guy in based on your intuition hoping to get that one extra inning a week is crazy.  You can have 10 batters and get two more extra relief pitchers but where you gonna put those extra guys. I'll tell you where.  On your your bench, cuz there are only 5 spots...that's where

You be talking crazy lol.  Stop that.

D, you're wrong here because I've been carrying 6 RPs most of the year for various reasons. Bats on DL, not enough good bats, matchup reasons. I used properly, having 6 RPs an work to yor benefit. Also, many RPs have SP eligibility so that explains how you can have more than 5 relievers in your lineup.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by DmanofGod1 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:02 am

Well that might explain why your team is better than mine lol.

I'm not gonna take the time to search every day and try to research which RP will probably, maybe, hopefully pitch that night.  And putting in an extra bat on the days offs is just as good as putting in that sixth RP on the day off.  But i also like my bats.

Plus if a RP has the SP designation,  hes probably more of a long reliever which means hes not good enough to be a SP or a late inning guy.  I don't want those guys in my lineup at all.  Once in a while, you will get a dude who is accumulating holds though.  Forgot about that.  Rare to find a good one though.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by DmanofGod1 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:03 am

But Giles does not have the SP designation

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by HELLFISH on Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:06 am

@nostratimus wrote:
@DmanofGod1 wrote:Are you serious right now?  

Sit your dud bats for a RP?  You can't be serious right?!  Who would make that comparison?  Where you gonna put Giles in your lineup?  2nd base, util?  You know we have only 5 spots that a RP can start in right?  5.  No more.  And those guys play 6 games a week and unless you are God, it's impossible to predict when they are gonna pitch.  So trying to rotate a 6th guy in based on your intuition hoping to get that one extra inning a week is crazy.  You can have 10 batters and get two more extra relief pitchers but where you gonna put those extra guys. I'll tell you where.  On your your bench, cuz there are only 5 spots...that's where

You be talking crazy lol.  Stop that.

D, you're wrong here because I've been carrying 6 RPs most of the year for various reasons. Bats on DL, not enough good bats, matchup reasons. I used properly, having 6 RPs an work to yor benefit. Also, many RPs have SP eligibility so that explains how you can have more than 5 relievers in your lineup.


HA HA HA my 6th RP is Zach Britton Bal - SP,RP BAM it can be done! 2.08 ERA 26 SV sure help on my comeback push! But Zach be coming a closer was all luck. if i really would have known i would have signed him for a few more years.

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Re: FINE RULE REVIEW

Post by HELLFISH on Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:12 am

Bottom line guys really don't think there anyone here to cheat. but having errors on a roster can effect the standing and just like we take a illegal roster as and error. We have to believe there is not a GM out there waiting for a roster error to become 3-4 weeks old in order for rival GM to get a big fine.

I kind gotta a feel for what we can do and once I have some time I'll put up a Vote.

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