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Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:44 am

Part One

Draft position based on playoff results is fine with me.  But then again, I'm fine with winning % too.  Everyone seemed fine with the playoff draft position based on winning % and then the champion and runner up get the last two spots...but then now this.  I just care that the current system that rewards a "wildcard" team is changed.  You shouldn't be able to win the championship and still get the best draft position of playoff teams.  We can all agree with that. 

Part Two

I'm on the fence but I'm leaning toward being on board with Dan on this.  What's the difference between the two systems?  Mark likes to simplify things so let's do that.  One system rewards the worst teams and encourages people to not be active, pack it in come the middle of the year.  The other system rewards the mediocre teams and encourages everyone to be active. 

People are asking if the system is broken?  Who is abusing the system?  Well let's take a look at the standings.  West Chester never made any moves.  Would he deserve the #1 spot if he had his pick or should another team benefit from his inactivity?  Ann Arbor will be different which is why this rule shouldn't take effect until 2016.  Texas is bottom three every year.  Should Texas be rewarded year after year for that?  SD didn't try to compete at all.  Should SD be rewarded?  London was fourth but had he not traded away so many guys at deadline and packed it in, he wouldn't be 4th.  Should London be rewarded for that?  Myself and this system change calls guys out which is why it probably won't pass but just look at the evidence.  The system is rewarding teams that aren't active or are packing it in. 

Looks guys, no one including me wants to kick anyone out of the league.  But the standards of this forum league is stated right from the very beginning.  Owners are supposed to log in once a day and the activity in their leagues should reflect that.  Are we holding guys to that?  Are we?  Look at what Ann Arbor is doing in every league he is a part of.  I GUARANTEE his team will finish better than his previous owner in every league.  He's already making me regret that I have his first round draft pick in football.  And ideally that's what we want from every owner.  But we aren't holding guys to that so let's at least make a system that rewards people that are active.  So you have a choice.  You want to reward guys that try but are medicocre or ones that either aren't inactive or are packing it in?  It isn't good for the activity of the league or the forum. 

Now that I've wrote about it, I'm pretty much for this lol.  I know guys don't like change (especially Mark lol) but come on Mark, simply look at the systems.  And yes, it won't take affect for two years.  It gives everyone a chance to prepare for it and adjust.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:51 am


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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:05 pm

The part i dislike is that I am active a put my team out there every day. I`m in the middle of a rebuild where I have traded and counted on the picks to help with it. I would draft 4th the way it is now but with this proposed new system I would get bumped to 7th. So where the hell is the fairness in that? You don`t care Dustin because you will be competing next year and years to come. I bet you`d be pissed if you lost your draft positions by 3-4 spots the last couple of years. It would have made a huge difference of the players you would get vs what you have now.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:37 pm

It'd be implemented in 2016, Mark.

You will be much improved by then.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by HELLFISH on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:39 pm

@bshirt7 wrote:Here is my two cents.

Similar to Dan's idea...In other leagues that I am in and are keeper leagues, The winner of the consolation bracket gets the first pick, 2nd pick goes to the runner up, and then the rest is figured by winning%..so 
 
#1 Pick  Consolation Bracket winner
#2 Pick  Consolation Bracket Runner up
#3 Pick  thru #10 Pick  based on season winning % lowest 3rd pick highest 10th pick
#11 Pick Playoff 1st Round Loser
#12 Pick  Playoff 1st Round Loser
#13 Pick Playoff 2nd Round Loser
#14 Pick Playoff 2nd Round Loser
#15 Pick  Championship LOSER
#16 Pick BOS CHAMPS


Seems to work well in the other leagues I am in. That way there is something to play for. Also seems the fairest cause if you doesn't do well,  due a number of things. you still get a decent pick. 
Wow this is way Beter then my idea. It's like a playoff for the 7-16 place. But again if any change is made it will not be until 2-3 year down the road.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Consolation bracket idea is very cool.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by HELLFISH on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:52 pm

Yeah give mark a chance to get from 7th pick or 4th pick to grab the #1 or 2

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:57 pm

Gives everyone else something to play for.

Damn. That be good.

Now, what do the naysayers have to 'nay' say about it?? ha

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by johnscrn on Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:16 pm

Brian's system would get my vote, consolation bracket extends the season Smile. Plus, if in the same position in 3 years, Rocky Mountain would get no worse than his 4th place pick but have the chance for pick 1 or 2 - can't be against that right?

although it wouldn't actually have an impact on the problem you are suggesting exists. Worst teams would just be tanking for 3rd pick instead of 1st.


Edit: I'm wrong about RM getting 4th pick still


Last edited by johnscrn on Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:35 pm

So Canton who finished 7th gets the 1st pick then Philly who finished 9th gets the 2nd pick. Now I go down to 6th. You are forcing guys to make moves that they normally wouldn`t have to do. I`m sorry I just don`t see the benefit of this. Teams that finish in the middle get the 1st 2 picks while the teams at the bottom who need the picks get shafted. If we had a tanking problem maybe I`d agree. Do some guys not put a full effort in,I`m sure there are  some. The teams that don`t even make the consolation round (like myself) get screwed over. There is no way you can convince me that giving the mid level teams the top picks vs the bottom teams who need them is fair.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:54 pm

Okay, I figured someone would say something about how I got high picks., which is an exagerration.  This is only my third year.  I only finished in the bottom the very first year.  The expansion year and that doesn't count.  We got shafted that year.  Everyone got to keep their top 15 players and then we got the castoffs and we were limited choosing them at that.  We were forced to draft a certain amount of salary, had a lower salary cap and we got no picks in the draft.  That was junk so that year doesn't count.  Last year I improved and finished 10 or 11th so my draft position would have been roughly the same in either system.  And this year is this year.  

Mark, no one is saying the system will be enacted this year.  Everyone would have changed their strategy had they known.  Enacting this several years down the road gives everyone time to prepare.  You have two years to put together a competitive team.  Thats enough time for everyone.  

And in Brian's system, I wouldn't limit it to just the top two guys in the consolation bracket because people can still just not care and know that at least they get the 3rd pick.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Doug on Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:10 pm

Are we beginning to discuss two separate issues here? I've always thought of a draft as a way for teams who need talent to add talent. Same goes for free agency too. The whole discussion about trying or not trying, not logging in as agreed upon, or outright tanking, is to me a whole different issue in which an owners place in the league should be reviewed
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by johnscrn on Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:12 pm

It's great that you turned things around but if a new system was introduced, and it succeeds in making everyone try harder, someone will still finish last. At that point the new system would be broke since you are not promoting parity. You will just be trying to keep the worst teams at the bottom.  

If someone isn't trying question if they still want their team.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:42 pm

That's where we disagree.  You guys are saying that if you finish last, they must need more talent.  And the draft is a way of giving those teams the talent they need.   

We are saying teams finish last not because they lack talent but because they don't try to honestly win unless they think they have a shot at wining it all.  (And I'm 100% guilty of this) That isn't tanking per say.  And believe me, if I had motivation to win more, i would have tried to win more.  But i had none, zero..nada.  Yes, teams set their lineups, but they aren't competing because they don't feel they can make the playoffs and signing guys throughtout the season to make their team better only hurts their draft position.  It's just to their best advantage not to compete because they are rewarded for the more worse they do. 

In that way, the system encourages lack of competition and makes for a half hearted league.  In the real world, if you are bad, you are fired, you lose attendence, you lose money.  And then you don't have a team at all.  No one wants to set up a system that kicks managers if they perform poorly. 

But It's not a bad idea to set up a system that rewards competition and trying to win.  Being rewarded for sucking with no negative consequences is a poor competitive system and not good for our fantasy league.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:19 pm

That's where we disagree.  You guys are saying that if you finish last, they must need more talent.  And the draft is a way of giving those teams the talent they need.   

This is the way most fantasy leagues are run,but nooooo this isn`t good enough for BoS. You guys are accusing owners of tanking because they finish near or at the bottom. You might as well call them cheaters too. 

 Idk I`m just sick of every few weeks or months we have to discuss rules changes. Change is not always for the better. It would be nice for once to not have to have these discussions. Multiple times since the league inception this has occurred and it`s getting really old.

I know none of this won`t take place for a couple of years. I can read. I was citing this year and previous ones as examples of how this is wrong.

 You guys will get your way anyway because you will push and push and push until you get your way so have at it i`m done.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:42 pm

It's baseball. More than 70% of the picks flop, and even when they do not, they take 3-4 years to mature/be ready. Some guys take 6 to 8 before they are fully ready!!

With a system like this, we keep guys competitive throughout the year, even when they are not going for the title.

The last few teams that do not make the consolation bracket are still getting decent picks. I get that the top few picks are more premium than 7-10 range, but if we go over the past several drafts, I believe we can find that there isn't THAT much of a difference.

Plus, where did Abreu go? Knowing what we know now, he isn't 6th or 8th or whatever, he'd be 1st easily.

It's not like the baseball draft is like football or basketball where you can rebuild a team quickly. Save for the few Abreu like exceptions, your draft is something that will not mature for several seasons.

Like Dustin said, the goal is to keep the league from being half-hearted at times. It is unfortunate that we have to sorta legislate that, but I am always for improving the system if we can.

The core greatness of BoS is not changing with this, Mark. And this is not even for sure. A few of us liking it does not mean the whole league would.

Remember, it takes 10 votes for stuff to pass. If 10 out 16 dig this, then it is obviously something we should do.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by johnscrn on Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:48 pm

it seems to me there are only three supporters at this point so I'm not sure they will get their way. I think discussion on how to improve things is healthy. The proposal that started the discussion is to harsh but I understand Akron's argument. 
My system would allow the last place team to keep their top pick but they would have to fight for it. Its just probably not practical for a league like this (but the NBA NEEDS to use it).
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Doug on Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:05 pm

"We are saying that teams finish last not because they lack talent, but because they don't try to honestly win unless they have a shot at winning it all"

To me, this speaks to owner integrity, and anything that complicates talent distribution will never fix this. I like the league and think all this discussion is coming from well intentioned people, I just think we are really complicating this. I'll stay with the league and will abide by whatever vote takes place. But I will be surprised if three years after implementing this we are saying "wow, that was a great idea"
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:14 pm

I think we'd be liking it right away!

With everyone fighting for something, the quality of play goes up!

6 teams make playoffs for the title
6 teams make consolation bracket for picks 1/2 or 1-6
At least 2 of the remaining 4 have to be near consolation bracket race.

That's 14 of 16 teams playing for something n having incentive to be very active ALL YEAR!

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:10 pm

Mark, you are wrong.  We aren't gonna push our way through.  I am just discussing the possible benefits of it.  I aready said before I was on the fence and I didn't think this gets passed.  Discussion of new ideas isn't evil lol.

It seems there are a lot of ppl not for it so not sure this could ever get 10 votes.  I'm totally fine with the system staying the way that it is.

But i think it would add excitement to the league and we are overvaluing the draft anyway.  And this coming from a guy that loves the draft and minors more than all of you..  But I've made my money on the mid to late round picks.  You say, well you would have hated this when you sucked.  No, I wouldn't have.  In any fantasy league, I analyze the rules and I adjust accordingly.  If it's in my advantage to suck, I suck.  Had it been in my advantage to be competitive, I would have tried to be competitive.  Just being honest here.  Right now, if a team can't realistically win it all, then it's in their advantage to suck...and suck bad.  Doug says it's an integrity problem?  Is it?  These teams are just doing what is best for them as the system encourages them to do.  
 
If a lot of guys don't want to try this, fine.  But i think it makes the league exciting for most of the teams come the end of the season, not just the 6-8 playoff teams like we have now.  

Oh well.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by expos on Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:41 pm

Although I'm still on the fence your last post leaned towards a yes vote
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by ericdm70 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:42 pm

Interesting to see that the teams with zero input are ones that this will most likely affect...
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:51 pm

What happened to this being an open discussion.  Mark, altho we've had discussions on trying to make changes every year to the state of the entire BoS, the draft order system currently in place hasn't changed in 5 years, the original rule!  So I don't know why you feel like we've been changing it so much.  It hasn't changed!  Can we discuss?  Sure.  Up to you if you want to participate or not.  Have a say, make a point, convince others.  Don't say a word, we won't know how you feel.  I'm glad you're participating but let others do the same without judgement.

As much as I like the consolation bracket determining picks, it's still the same story…bad teams have less of a chance because they're bad!  Now we can go on different paths to say why they're bad…is it a complete rebuild? Is it because they don't care?  Etc.  Let the bad teams draft high and give them a chance right?!  Of course, makes sense.  "ENTER THE PERFORMANCE-BASED CAP"

Why do bad teams need the same amount of cash as the teams that compete when they don't even spend it?  That's why in a real market, they don't spend as much bc they don't have the revenue bc they don't have the fanfare.  That's why almost always, highly prized FAs never sign with bottom feeders.  Philly admitted that he just saved his money for the last 4-5 years so he can spend it this offseason now that's he ready.  It was obvious to see..don't blame him either bc those were the rules and that was the system!

FOrget about all this crying poor BS about how bad teams are getting punished.  Good teams are getting punished by spending money, making trades, giving up prospects and picks, to try and win…BUT somehow their counterparts collect all their assets, get the best prospects, and then have the same $$$ to spend (I mean save).  Let's flip the coin.  Is that fair?

Take your #1 pick for being the worst team.  I agree with that notion.  Take less money and cap space too since you're not spending it anyway.

Let's take an honest look at this guys…proposed cap system based on performance to follow Very Happy   Remember, this is still a discussion!


Last edited by nostratimus on Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by ericdm70 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:58 pm

Well said Champ!

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:24 pm

The performance-based cap is simply that, you amount of money to spend each year is based on your performance.  The extra money that good teams receive is based on the greater "virtual" revenue they generate (ticket sales, merchandise, TV deals, etc.).
This happens in real life and in every sport.  The only factor we won't bother with is small-market teams because that doesn't apply to our fantasy!

Here goes.  This is my chance to win some folks and probably gain a stronger hatred from others Very Happy

Based on this past season's standings:

Los Angeles Clusters 1st              = 180
Toronto Moosehead 2nd/Champ     = 180
New York Sewer Rats 3rd/.559      = 175
Tijuana Infiernofish 4th/.534         = 175
Arizona Desert Stars 5th/Finalist    = 172
Akron Littleguys 6th/.533              = 172
FV Barons 7th/.524                      = 170
Sudbury Expos 8th/.514                = 170
Canton Playmakers 9th/.505          = 167
Michigan Marauders 11th/.473       = 167 
Philadelphia Phanatics 12th/.466     = 165
London Phillies 13th/.455 = 165
Rocky Mountain Misfit 10th/.447      = 162
San Diego Nine 14th/.409              = 162
Texas Bird Dogs 15th/.390             = 160
Ann Arbor Residuals 16th/.BAD       = 160

*20M diff between first 2 and last 2 isn't that bad considering that's the price of 2 guys making 10M and chances are, the bottom 2 teams won't be spending 10M on any player in FA, let alone 2 guys.

Then…playoff bonuses:
win 1st round = +1.5M
win 2nd round = +1.5M
win World series = +2.5M
Max amount = 5.5M

These numbers can be discussed, playoff bonuses too.  The whole idea is that good teams usually spend the money or trade away young assets to contend and win championships.  That's the nature of the business.  I've been spending a lot the last 3 yrs on rentals and FA's to compete with the best.  Giving up most of my picks and the few prospects I had to finally win it all this year.  Not crazy like JI but it got me a title.  Want to run your team better than I did?  Draft well and spend your money wisely and you many not need to pay/overpay on rentals.  Then you can run your franchise like the TB Rays and compete every year without sacrificing the farm.

What do you think?


Last edited by nostratimus on Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:32 pm

Oh, this wouldn't take effect for another 2 years like Dan originally stated.  

Also, teams like mine and AZ will prob be dropping like rocks by that time so this is definitely something that won't benefit us…more for the league as JI puts it.  

Who will gain the most from this?  The perennial basement dwellers who should have 40 "top 10" prospects on their roster by that time Laughing  Can't say we're punishing you now unless you're still scraping rock bottom by that time.  Can't see how anybody v=can be worse then AZ and Sudbury in 2 years Razz


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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:43 pm

Works for me... even if I will be at the bottom end of the spectrum by then.

But yes, league first.

Always.

I think the disparity of 20mil is very reasonable. I'd even say 30 is more in line.

I mean, after all, there is a 200mil disparity in the big leagues from first to worst, hahahahaha.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:50 pm

Man you had me going for a few minutes there when I looked at the standings. I couldn`t figure how you had me 10th when I finished 13th. You made my winning pct 477 when it should be 447.Damn typos lol. Altho I don`t agree totally with your analysis I do like this better than the other system. I was a bottom feeder and did have some cash left. Could i have spent it? Absolutely. But why, it wasn`t going to improve my standing. Why sign useless fa for the sake of wasting money.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:02 pm

You could sign them to improve your standing for either Performance Based Cap or the Consolation #1 pick bracket!!

Or both!!

I just think either or both changes make for a much more competitive atmosphere. And if you still wanna stash your rooks (altho we give you so many damn cheap years anyway), then you know the risks.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:23 pm

@Ballbasherz wrote:Man you had me going for a few minutes there when I looked at the standings. I couldn`t figure how you had me 10th when I finished 13th. You made my winning pct 477 when it should be 447.Damn typos lol. Altho I don`t agree totally with your analysis I do like this better than the other system. I was a bottom feeder and did have some cash left. Could i have spent it? Absolutely. But why, it wasn`t going to improve my standing. Why sign useless fa for the sake of wasting money.

fixed.  I copied and pasted from earlier post.  Idea is still the same though…

Glad you like it better than draft system ideas altho that doesn't really say much since you absolutely hated that idea Very Happy

Even with the proposed 160M for last place teams, they'l most likely have money left over anyways.  So it's not to say we're giving them less AND they also feel like they have to spend it all and not be able to save. Bottom 4 teams at the end of this season had season's payroll of 110, 150 (that's with TEX taking on Holliday's 16M expiring contract), 129, and 113, respectively.  Did somebody say Philly? Philly's payroll was a minuscule 58M!!!  WTF? Each of my 2 Morrow/Headley buyouts were almost equal to that.  

Damn, that makes this proposal even harder to ignore.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

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