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Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by thephilipbrown on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:46 pm

I echo the points made by Mark, Philly & the new guy. We only have 7-8 teams competitive in the second half bc the way the league is set up. It's not just the first half, it's the whole season. Changing the draft order or giving top finishers more money isn't going to magically make 5 bad teams better. 

I simply fail to see the point of this. Ive tried. I just don't see how it accomplishes any of the stated goals.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by thephilipbrown on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:56 pm

When I'm the owner of a bad team, I tend to not pick up FAs bc they, however bad they are, may be useful for a team competing for the playoffs.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:11 pm

While admiral, that is the point of contention here:

Purposeful inactivity/lack of effort.

If these systems were in place, you'd have a reason to care about your wins, and thus, go after those FAs.

Right now, there is no reason. So although you are doing a nice thing for the Playoff teams, it has an affect on the league as a whole when teams purposely do not try and improve during the year.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:50 am

@thephilipbrown wrote:When I'm the owner of a bad team, I tend to not pick up FAs bc they, however bad they are, may be useful for a team competing for the playoffs.

Which is my argument for a performance cap. Why should bad teams get rewarded with more money to save if we know they won't be spending it?

I will split sides though and say bad teams should still get the best picks so I don't agree with the consolation bracket or changing the draft pick order. The most I would do is the idea Peter first brought up...you accumulate points as soon as you're mathematically out of playoff race and the team with the most points gets 1st pick and so on. This at least will make sure that bad teams will want tonstart their starters to accumulate stats and go for category wins. The worst team gets a head strart over every team so this model may only affect how the bottom 3-4 teams duke it out, essentially an active lottery. Teams finishing out of the bubble would not have enough time to get enough wins unless the bottom teams are that bad!!!

If the system doesn't change now, i will for sure play the system when it's my time and go for last place every year until I'm ready. I won't spend money in FA. The when the coin flips, the teams rebuilding now will see in a few years when it's their time to shine how bad the current system is. But don't get me wrong, I'll set my lineups and ensure nothing is illegal. Doesn't make for a great league IMO so that is why we are brainstorming ideas to:
1) make the league more competitive
2) start thinking about how $175 cap is too much for 16 teams when a greater % of the roster roster will be filled by rookies than ever before.

Let's find solutions! Have a different idea, share it. Saying no, I don't agree doesn't help solve these issues.

Maybe we should start first with:
1) Do you think the league needs to be more competitive?
2) do you think the 175 cap needs to change in the coming years?
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by johnscrn on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:18 am

1) no comment, don't know.
2) no
why wouldn't the market correct itself? The more money everyone has to spend the higher the contracts will be. Are rookies really outperforming veterans? Maybe some rookies are being held on to for to long hoping they do something when they could be cut and the position be filled by a proven veteran. How about we get rid of the warchest(new idea) and people can't wait anymore for their guys to mature. It seems people are optimizing their price per point which rookies are great for. Get rid of the warchest and people will have to optimize their points per cap dollar.  You would keep only your best rookies and let the rest go to FA.
In reality I should be supporting this because I have few rookies so as contracts get inflated for the best players I will not be able to compete in the FA because I have an entire team to fill. But if I have a bad year and get less money then it will be even harder for me to compete in FA.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by thephilipbrown on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:34 pm

I was talking about FAs during the season except to fill out a roster for injuries. 

To answer Tim's queries:
1) I think it's plenty competitive. In every league, you are going to have good and bad teams. It's simply impossible for every team to be above .500. I guess it depends on what your individual definition of competitive is.

2) I do not think that the $175 cap needs to change. Raising or lowering it is simply going to change the amount of money put into the market, not how well it's spent by each owner. Some people will make poor decisions, some will make savvy ones. This has absolutely nothing to do with how much money is available.

If my roster is filled with young, cheap players, having a lower amount of money to spend doesn't make me any more/less likely to win. 

I understand Peter's proposal completely. I just don't see how trying to accumulate points makes a team that was bad on July 31 magically good on August 1.

To your point of "current rebuilding teams seeing how bad it is", I'm ok with it when I'm on the other side. Play the system down the road. Go for it. Be my guest. I will not complain. That's how leagues like this work. The bad get good and the bad get good and the cycle repeats. Free markets are a good thing.

My disagreement is because I think the way it is currently works.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:22 pm

Our winning pct disparity between top and bottom teams is atrocious.

654 to 389 or whatever is pretty bad!!

I think the suggestions would help make for a tighter league!

Also, I cannot fathom why people near the bottom are not excited about the consolation bracket and having something to play for.

It keeps the games meaningful  ALL YEAR! And honestly, whether it's the race for the title, or the race to win the number 1 pick in the consolation bracket, all that matters at the end of the year is having meaningful games still.

What's wrong with fun and excitement? After all, that's what this is all supposed to be about, right??

And again, in baseball, I do not see too much disparity between pick 1 and pick 7.

It is as if y'all are thinking we are trying to be negative and punish teams at the bottom, but instead, what we are doing is trying to be positive and give those teams something to strive for. And in turn, the league should be much tighter.

This 8 teams fighting, 8 teams blah is stuff that other leagues do have, but why should we just stick to that? We have the best league for a reason. This makes it better, while giving just about everyone something to play for all year.

When Dan approached me about all this, the key thing was to spice up Activity all year. I fail to see how this does not accomplish that.

But, I think it is getting to the point where we should think about getting some sort of informal polling going, so we can know if we should even of voting on it or not.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by HELLFISH on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:44 pm

Let's stop beating a dead horse   , I will review the pro and con and take it to vote if there was enough owners interest in a draft change. We will have all voting in DEC during Baseball GM winter meeting and prior to Trade opeing

again there will be a vote to change the current draft order for playoff teams. base on winning % (lowest to highest) as the team get kicked from playoffs.

This is that time you guys can bring up past rule suggestions or rule changes, or request to have a current rule review or deleted if you have reason for it. post it. 

I for one always post ideas on how to try to make the league more competitive and thank you all for your commits on this draft rule idea. Special Thank to our "no" GM Mark The Old Fart we all love!

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Ballbasherz on Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:57 pm

I`m done trying to be proactive here. The only one that argues is JO. He`d agree to anything Dan says. I would love to hear from others..

This proposal is ludacris. Take your blinders off guys. This proposal will not fix anything except make owners waste money on useless fa.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Xezus on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:03 pm

I have made my arguements for why i think these things are silly. I am a hard no on structured caps and anything to do with changing draft orders of the lower teams unless we come up with some lottery ball format similar to the nba.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:19 pm

I have not 'argued' with anyone... Other than your assumption that I am arguing! Haha.

I have made my points, just as you have yours. Some people had similar thoughts/viewpoints as my own, and some did not.

As far as agreeing to anything Dan says, that is false as well. Maybe I am trying to 'make the case' the most, but whatever, I chime in when/how I like... and was going to be done after Dan posted until you brought me up again!

You say the proposals are ridiculous; I say that they are great.

A Lottery could be cool as well, as Darrin just spoke of. I just thought the Michigan suggestion of Consolation Bracket was beautiful, as teams pretty much controlled their own destiny.

Figured it made the season fun for everyone, whether you were competing for a title, or competing for a better draft pick.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:42 pm

Yep, I would vote yes for this but i'm fine with the current system too.

Seems like there are some hard "no"s in Darrin, PB and Mark combined with some probable others in Tim and new guy.  I'm not sure Tristan would like this either but he hasn't checked or responded to his messages in a month so maybe he wouldn't vote lol.  

Either way, it's a stretch that we would get 10 yes votes on the proposal of changing the structure of the draft for those who don't make the playoffs.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:59 pm

Agreed. 

Seems like only 'maybe' is Performance Based Cap.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:02 pm

Is it correct that seeds 7-12 make the consolation round? Maybe we target that group of teams and let them compete for picks 5-10, with playoff bracket deciding last 6 picks.

That way, bottom 4 are guaranteed their picks. After that, you've got everybody else playing to the end. In this case, GMs will have to play through to the championship week too if they want to improve draft order. Kind of a hybrid of all ideas and everybody gets a piece of the pie...except for me and my push for a different cap system. Sad

Only team that gets a worse pick for winning a postseason matchup is the champion.

Thoughts?
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by thephilipbrown on Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:01 am

I believe the regular season is more indicative of your true talent than the postseason. i don't care if the team who wins the title finished 6th or 1st in the regular season. The draft order should be based on the outcome less subject to the random distribution of events. 20+ weeks trumps three. 

Let's say KC wins the World Series. Will anyone think they were the best team? They finished second in arguably baseball's 2nd worst division, won a coin flip game  then beat a team with no starting pitching. Both Baltimore and StL are superior teams. 

Or the Giants..they finished second in the worst division (Dodgers were good but the other three were dreadful). Won a coin flip game. Best the superior Nationals because Matt Williams refused to be even a little creative with his bullpen, leading to SF scoring a run on a wild pitch during an IBB. 

I understand some people agree with my position and others disagree. I'll accept whichever outcome but I'm not changing my opinion.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:57 am

If KC wins, they are absolutely the best team. 

Another team may have better overall parts, but the objective is set before each team before the season:

Get to the playoffs
Win
Get the trophy 

The best team holds up the trophy. Better parts may be nicer throughout the year, but when given a chance to shine, if they fail, how can they be considered the best? 

Gotta get it done!

Otherwise, have one big roto season with no individual game W/L for teams, and whoever compiles the best stats after 162x9inning exhibitions, gets the trophy 

Hahahaha

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:02 am

Yea I'm not really buying the whole, baseball doesn't crown the best team sad story.  Thats an extremely arbitrary argument anyway.  Is the best team the team with the best stats, the most wins, the team that's able to win when it needs to...

From the the outset, every baseball team knows what they need to do.  Believe me, I'm an Indians fan.  In the 90s we were the best team year after year, and we couldn't seal the deal.  So we didn't get the trophy.  And we shouldnt.  Because you don't get the trophy for winning most the way.

You get it for winning all the way.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:30 am

You don't understand!

If the quantity of a + b = c - r2d2, then luke skywalker rides in the millenium falcon during sunday day games, nelson cruz makes a catch of david freese, and the best team wins!

duh!

Or... maybe we should sit around and let Baseball America pick our Champion. Big parties for the Magazine Launch TV Show to tell us!

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by thephilipbrown on Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:00 pm

Crowning the best team in October to possibly November is just as arbitrary as crowning the best record or best stats or whatever.

http://freakonomics.com/2012/11/09/does-the-%E2%80%9Cbest%E2%80%9D-team-win-the-world-series/
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by HELLFISH on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:02 pm

The MLB season including the post season is not a sprint, it is a Marathon. the first leg is to get into the playoffs and the second leg is to win the playoffs!

Best team does WIN IT ALL, yes other teams may have had a better record. but record don't mean shit once your in the dance. 

The goal for every team is to win it all, in five year no one will remember which team had the best record this year but will remember who the best team is, and that IS the World Series Champ!

SORRY 
BEST TEAM ALWAYS WINs

sorry to say it but in '13 & '14 CARDS>DOYERS FUCK makes me want to cry!

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:47 pm

Crap, I had a nice little write-up while on the subway going to work (no wifi here in Toronto) and then lost it all so here are the points I can remember.

Another idea? Yup! I'll keep posting to see how we can somehow bridge the two opposite ideologies together. One that calls for changing the system and one that is firmly saying no!

Here goes...

I'm on the side that wants more competition but not at the expense of bad teams not getting the high picks to help them rebuild. Let's add 2 more playoff berths! I bet you those 4 teams that missed it would've been fighting tooth and nail for it. FV, MI, Sud...Lon may have tried to go for it too rather than mail it in.

I know some of you feel that only the best should get it in. You're right but then that means the disparity in the league will be what it is.  You can't say that only the best should get in BUT in the same breath say that you want more competition and more teams to be closer to the top. That just won't happen.

So how do we reward top 2 seeds now that they don't get a bye? 2 ways...

1) home teams (top 4 seeds) should have "home field" advantage for being the 4 best teams over a long 22 week season! So why not give them an advantage?
- road team must submit their lineup first (ex. By Saturday night of match up) and home team gets to submit lineup after.
- road team only get to have a 23 man roster while home team gets 25 man roster. More pronounced here but we're trying to reward home field advantage.
*id say though that in the championship series, both rosters should be 25.
Anyways, just some ideas. I really like the home field adv aspect and if it flies, we can brainstorm what the advantage(s) will be.

2) like in the JB era, playoff teams were awarded bonuses for winning rounds. Since this performance cap idea doesn't seem like it'll take off, why not give playoff teams the bonus/playoff revenue they deserve? Nothing astronomical but something like 1mil for quarters, 2mil for semis and 3 mil for championship?

Again, why should bad teams get rewarded with nice picks and lots of money that they won't spend while the best team only get a virtual yahoo trophy and a wooden bat that costs money to maintain? Haha.

C'mon, any takers? Will this be the one that nudges Mark and Phil?


Last edited by nostratimus on Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by HELLFISH on Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:01 pm

Tim I like it. 

Am scarping the whole fight for top pick, since it just to may type of ideas and bottom line none will get the 10 votes there are ready 4 "No's" which is not a bad thing. 

there will be a vote to change current rule for playoff team pick order for sure. 

Up o but up a 8 playoff team posting we need for GM to agree to take that to vote. 

Also put up a Team Playoff Bonus change giving Playoff team what they deserve for make the run into the playoffs. performance bonus which would raise the cap for playoff team and leave the non playoff teams at 175M cap.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by thephilipbrown on Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:30 am

Tim, I appreciate the effort. I'm still voting no because I don't think the postseason determines the best team. Adding more teams to the pool only decreases the chances the best team wins. You guys are entitled to your opinion and I mine. I wouldn't be opposed to bonuses for winning rounds or adding teams, provided the draft order reflected the regular season. I will say no to anything changing the draft order from regular season finish eight days a week.

I would be completely fine if MLB did away with divisions, had everyone play an equal amount against each other then pitted the two best against one another.
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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

Post by nostratimus on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:08 am

I'm okay with draft order left unchanged minus the part about finalists dropping down to last 2 picks. I'd take a shot at the title over hanging on to, at best, the 12th pick.

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Re: Rule suggestions for '15 (Draft Order)

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