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Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

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Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:53 pm

Philly is too good to tank for him, but here's looking at you, Texas and San Diego!

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:13 pm

He could get signed, no? More $$ tho
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:22 pm

He can only be signed if he plays a ML game before the deadline.

If he stays the full year in MILB, he's in the draft next year.

Granite State better drink their Hops n not play this year, so you can draft him 1st overall, haha.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:33 pm

Integrity wrote:He can only be signed if he plays a ML game before the deadline.

If he stays the full year in MILB, he's in the draft next year.

Granite State better drink their Hops n not play this year, so you can draft him 1st overall, haha.
 = #1 Pick

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:34 pm

Puig was that last MiLB/INTL player which was signed before everyone got PO'd and changed the rule!

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:14 am

Seems like if cubans arent in mlb drafts and are f/a, maybe they should not be in our drafts. They have their own system not like other internationals.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:52 am

They are in the draft. any Cuban signed prior to the draft beginning. Yasmany Tomas (Ari-OF) was draft with #2 pick, and Rusney Castillo (Bos-OF) was #7. Jose Abreu (ChW-1B) was draft high last year. I Drafted Raisel Iglesias (Cin-P) in 2nd round.

reason they have to be drafted prior was GM could hold draft waiting for a Cuban to be signed and approved by MLB office.

now if he makes the big club once he enters that game, let the bidding war begin. or he's most likely be the #1 pick next year.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:09 am

Well yea i get all that.  Was just saying... since cubans dont go into mlb drafts, maybe they shouldn't in ours. When we wrote that rule some 5 years ago there wasnt that many cubans defecting. Now its like 1 per week lol
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:25 am

Bravo am with you on that, I was one of the few that fought the change. I was Cubans and Intl. players other then Asia Bid system. Should have a some sort of bonus biding system.
like if you win the signing bonus bid you get that Intl player on a rookie deal Plus the one time signing bonus you bid on. it also a way of getting guys to use war-chest $.

so like we open bid on Moncada. and you win for a $10M you pay that one time $10M fee and get Moncada on a RK contract which will included ARB!


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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:54 pm

Ooooooooooooooooooo

I like that A LOT!

I would even tweak that some to fit in the Japs, but altho the Japs are different, here is my proposal:

For Jap vets:

One time bid fee to win the rights. Now, since there cannot be negotiations, the Jap gets a 6 year deal for the total cost of the bid. When Dice was bid at 51 or so, he got like a 52 contract.

Well, let's say Yoshi Nintendo comes over next year. Philly bids 30 mil for his rights. So thus, he gets a 6/30 contract as well, meaning Philly pays 30 upfront, and then 5 per year. The catch is that Yoshi Nintendo is on a big league deal.

For Cubans and other latins, we do the flat bid fee, and then rookie deal.

So, Yoan Moncada is given a 50mil bonus by Darrin (spending all his money haha), and then a rookie contract.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:06 pm

the japs system we have now is fine, since almost all go from Asia league to MLB.

But the Intl system would be sweet since almost all go to MiLB.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:39 pm

Sounds good.

No comment on my hypothetical "Yoshi Nintendo" character? Lolol

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:40 pm

Let Moncada/Olivera be our first peeps!

Or we can wait til next year so people can save out for it and not complain that they would have saved out $$$ if they knew, etc.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:35 pm

The thing we are missing is that there is a difference between guys like Abreu, Tomas, Castillo and even Hector Olivera versus guys like Yoan Moncada.


Abreu, Tomas, Castillo, Olivera have a certain amount of time in the Cuban league and therefore become veteran free agents while Moncada is still an amateur free agent and is under the posting system.  I took advantage of the system and drafted Castillo but Latin veteran free agents should never be included in our draft.  They should be free agents just like Cespedes was.

You can tell the difference because Yoan Moncada got a 30 mil signing bonus while Hector Oliver is going to sign a 5 or 6 year 50-70 million dollar deal like Castillo and Tomas.

Moncada is a hard case because because there isn't any difference between him and guys like Gilbert Lara, Dermis Garcia, Adrian Rondon etc. 

So you could make a special case with Moncada but we would have to change our entire draft system if we made any player signed from Latin America part of a posting process.  (That would get really messy and would extremely devalue the draft)   

I would just keep the rules simple

1) Veteran Latin Free Agents - Once the player officially signs with an MLB team, they then immediately enter the BoS free agent pool.

2) Amateur Latin Free Agents - These players are draft eligible but also are eligible to be signed as free agents once they play their first MLB game.  

So all to say, (Unless he hits the majors before the draft..but he won't) Moncada should be draft eligible next year just like all the other young latin guys.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by thephilipbrown on Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:51 pm

The system we have is fine. It's basically what Akron said. J2 guys, which is essentially what Moncada is (under 23 & less than 5 years as a pro), are part of the draft, not free agency. If a Japanese player fitting these parameters, he'd be a J2 player & not eligible for posting.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:44 pm

No One changing rule, just spit balling here!

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:08 pm

HELLFISH wrote:No One changing rule, just spit balling here!

If you could read through my wall of text lol, i am in favor of a rule change.  Guys like Abreu, Tomas, Castillo should not be in the draft.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:53 pm

thephilipbrown wrote:The system we have is fine. It's basically what Akron said. J2 guys, which is essentially what Moncada is (under 23 & less than 5 years as a pro), are part of the draft, not free agency. If a Japanese player fitting these parameters, he'd be a J2 player & not eligible for posting.


Yea there we go. 

1) J2 guys (no matter where from) should be draft eligible.  

2) Guys who aren't J2 eligible should be free agent only, regardless if they played a game in America (MLB) yet.   

No way that 26 year old free agent guys (Olivera is 29) should be given rookie contracts.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:25 pm

Agree with Dustin's points.

Good posts.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:32 pm

DmanofGod1 wrote:
thephilipbrown wrote:The system we have is fine. It's basically what Akron said. J2 guys, which is essentially what Moncada is (under 23 & less than 5 years as a pro), are part of the draft, not free agency. If a Japanese player fitting these parameters, he'd be a J2 player & not eligible for posting.


Yea there we go. 

1) J2 guys (no matter where from) should be draft eligible.  

2) Guys who aren't J2 eligible should be free agent only, regardless if they played a game in America (MLB) yet.   

No way that 26 year old free agent guys (Olivera is 29) should be given rookie contracts.
 I agree, especially that last line.

By the time Rusney's rookie deal is done, he will pretty much be done, or close to it. If he hit our free agency, he'd probably get a half decent contract.

It's pretty easy to follow MLB with this one. If the player is drafted, we draft him. Maybe for international signings, we can use an arbitrary amount of say $10M, and if any player is signed for that amount or more in the real world, then he is a f/a in our world. If he's under that amount, he hits the draft. That covers all the international signings that arent the biggest deal.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:50 am

DmanofGod1 wrote:
thephilipbrown wrote:The system we have is fine. It's basically what Akron said. J2 guys, which is essentially what Moncada is (under 23 & less than 5 years as a pro), are part of the draft, not free agency. If a Japanese player fitting these parameters, he'd be a J2 player & not eligible for posting.


Yea there we go. 

1) J2 guys (no matter where from) should be draft eligible.  

2) Guys who aren't J2 eligible should be free agent only, regardless if they played a game in America (MLB) yet.   

No way that 26 year old free agent guys (Olivera is 29) should be given rookie contracts.

This Tweet in the rules would be we should review.i move this topic to Rule Talk for next winter.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by thephilipbrown on Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:53 pm

Bravo, are you saying ALL international guys or guys like Tomas? Because most international signings are low dollar amounts. Moncada is the exception, not the rule.

Perhaps the caveat should be if they're eligible for a major league conract (which Moncada isn't) are subject to this new rule (which I am in favor of not changing anything).
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:12 pm

Right. Most international are low $. Keep them draftable. Who wants to pay a contract on a guy that is 5yrs away that may not even become anything. We dont have a separate salary account for international signings. Saying anyone signed like the ones weve seen recently.. abreu rusney etc should be in free agency. We should set an age limit on the draft maybe or an amount the international signing was for.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:19 pm

So under the current rules when Hector Olivera signs, he cannot be signed to a contract in our leaghe until he plays his first game correct?

(Same with Moncada but he's only 19 so shouldn't make difference)

That's the strange part about our rules.  Guys from Japan, Korea etc can get contracts in our league but a 29 year old man from Cuba...No soup for you!

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:38 pm

I like how D's posts about the eligibility would work, but I also see Bravo's point about the $10mil.

However, if we end up with a system to where we do bid on the signing rights of the Moncada types, then it gets us to use our warchest, as what Dan stipulated.

Even if Moncada is a tech July 2nd type player, since he signed for over $10+mil, it stands to reason that he should not be a draft pick.

I also realize the Abreus/Rusneys/Puigs are few and far between, but with the wave of players coming, we should find the right approach that works well for the entire league going forward.

Is there a way to blend the Age/$$$ that works best?

My theory could be to say that J2 guys that aren't age elg to be FAs go into the draft, but with the caveat that you must be willing to pay X amount of a signing bonus in order to draft them.

SO, in the case of Moncada, let's say we make a rule that if a guy signs for over $10, we must be willing to pay 2/3 of a bonus in order to draft them, so Moncada would be draft elg, but for like $20mil to whomever drafts him. Then, when Phil, Tristan, or someone is OTC with 1st overall, they could have an interesting strategy decision take Moncada with $20 bonus attached to him, or whoever the 'hot' player is on the board.

Could be interesting, or is it too complex???

Again, I'm with Dan, and just trying to spit ball ideas to figure out the best system that isn't too nuts.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by thephilipbrown on Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:09 pm

I think it's over-complicating things. If a guys is J2 eligible, he shouldn't be subject to an arbitrary bonus unless you're going to assign every pick a dollar amount. 

If you think about it, MLB's method of paying amateur talent is ridiculous anyhow. American players really get shafted as some would be getting these large contracts in a truly free market.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:18 pm

Agree with the last line. The American player most def gets shafted in the system. MLB will need to adopt a worldwide draft someday.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:28 am

Starting to think the only players available in our draft should be players that were drafted in the mlb draft. All other international signings (japan, cuba, etc) are free agents. We have teams with lots of money and thats what it should be used for. The teams with lots of money in mlb are the ones that score these players anyway.  

We just have too much money. 16 teams here at 175m when mlb only had 16 teams that broke 100m last year, and we are following the same rookie scale. Nobody wants to spend tho. Nobody wanted to increase the rookie scale to follow mlb with a minimum salary of $500k. The arb scale was cut.

At a minimum,  these internationals should be free agents. Keep the draft for drafted players.

Oh, and im sure if you asked any cuban if americans are getting screwed, theyd love to get screwed like them! Think of how many players get drafted and get million plus dollar bonuses and never become anything. We are only seeing the elites from other countries getting paid.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:17 am

Edit.  Not arb scale. Contract extensions
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:12 am

Whoa, slow down there Nelly.  I'll go through my point by point flow chart  Razz

1) Too much money in market: 

A) Warchest - First of all, there is a lot of money in the league because a lot of teams that didn't think they could win in the past punted in free agency.  If we wanted a more competitive league, then carrying over money should be discontinued. But keeping it is fine. Every owner gets to run their team without the pressure to win from fans that would come in real life (what every GM in the MLB wishes they could do).  But what I won't agree to is changing the rules to reward teams for not trying to compete in past years and overflowing the market with money.  

B) Offseason - Money is skewed anyway right now since it's the offseason.  After free agency, the teams that are active will spend most of their money.

C) Buyouts - ??  MLB doesn't have buyouts  ??  Philly just took on Josh Hamilton and for 2 mil more than he was due this year, got to get out of that contract.  So when Dan processes it, Philly will go from 101 mil to 99 mil free this year..... We have a system in place that gets people out of bad contracts...no wonder we have so much money in the market!  

So because we have set up a system that floods the market with money, we should change the draft to normalize it? 
     

2) The logic that started this topic was:  Moncada got a lot of money = so he should get money in our league too. 

A) But the MLB draft is broken.  They missed the boat and while the NBA quickly moved to include internationals in their draft, the MLB got caught up in allowing teams to buy international kids before they realized, uh crap...it's getting out of control.  Now they are trying to impose caps and penalties.  It's a mess.      

B) It's arbitrary to say we can only draft Americans. It's ridiculous that Moncada can get 30 mil just because he's not from America.  I can only imagine the signing bonus that Buxton, Bryant, Aiken or for the love of Pete... Strasburg would have received had they had 30 teams competing for their services instead of 1. Either every young guy should be in a draft or every young guy should be a free agent.  It shouldn't matter where you live.  One or the other and I like our draft system.

The MLBs system is awful and everyone knows it.  No way we should copy their system. 


3) Free agent guys should only be veteran free agents (AKA Abreu, Castillo, Tomas, Olivera, Cespedes)

A) Few and far between - We say these guys are far and far between but how many Moncadas have their been? Not many. Just as few 

B) Adding a dollar amount in drafts - It's too complicated.  Guys having to look up the signing bonus that the real player got or taking a ridiculous amount of time to assign dollar amounts to picks.  Again, we are trying to completely makeover the draft to fix our flooded market.  But I'm open to having a system in our draft for guys that sign for over 10 mil.  Something like JI mentioned.  Has to be simple though.    

4) That is all  Razz

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