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Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:52 am

To 1a, there was a system in place to reward teams that won. They got more salary the next season. That scale was eliminated so now what's the point of trying to win a little more when youre getting 175m no matter what.

1c, mlb does do buyouts,  but nowhere near like how we do it. Im for eliminating buyouts,  especially with the cash flow.  We have it for fantasy purposes obviously.  Losing the buyouts will make teams think twice on offering rfas to get picks or just being stuck with a bad deal. 

3a, they are coming. How many 14yr olds in cuba are seeing these guys strike it rich.  Moncada the example. Theyre all juicing down there and have a clean system before they come here. Theyll be flooding soon.

Anyway. I dont disagree with anything anyone has said. I do think a tweak or 2 could make our system better.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:53 pm

The beautiful thing about our league is that we try and have the perfect blend of fantasy/reality.

I think it'd be good to give the Moncada's a signing bonus in order for them to be in the draft, but perhaps we should wait on that until we see more of those J2 guys get 20-30mil.

FOR NOW, let's adopt what Dustin proposed. Under no circumstances should another Chapman/Abreu/Rusney/etc be allowed in our draft.

This way, Olivera n etc will be FA, but Moncada/Lopez/Baldoquin may be in the next draft.

May as well tackle the main issue first, and later see if we need to get cuter.

Sound good??

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by thephilipbrown on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:17 pm

I don't think we should just adopt something. It needs to be voted on next offseason, just like any other rule change. My issue with this whole situation is that there just aren't enough guys to make new rules like "this guy under with these circumstances get this treatment but this guy under a similar set gets that treatment & another guy gets another". It's complicating & making rules just to make rules.

And no, there are no buyouts in MLB. Teams sign a player & pay that player every cent they're promised.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:37 pm

I'd agree with JI

Olivera is going to sign soon and play 2B for someone this year. I mean I don't really care if we table it because Olivera's gonna get paid regardless and Moncada won't play in the majors this year so changing the rule won't affect much except when a team can sign Olivera.  

But it just seems silly that a 29 year old 2B can't be signed until he plays one game in the majors but Tanaka can get an almost max contract before he even throws a pitch. 

Olivera says why?  "Uh, because you are from Cuba. Tanaka was from Japan.  Duh!"

Silly, am I right?

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:58 pm

thephilipbrown wrote:I don't think we should just adopt something. It needs to be voted on next offseason, just like any other rule change. My issue with this whole situation is that there just aren't enough guys to make new rules like "this guy under with these circumstances get this treatment but this guy under a similar set gets that treatment & another guy gets another". It's complicating & making rules just to make rules.

And no, there are no buyouts in MLB. Teams sign a player & pay that player every cent they're promised.
buyouts are very rare. there have been cases where a player settles for a little less and hits free agency. there is barely any money and time left on the contract when that happens.

im all for dropping buyouts too, lol. pretty unrealistic that hamilton signed a 4y deal and got bought out for 50% less after year 1. maybe just make it where we can buyout the last year of the contract only. have 1 team buyout maybe per year?, or every other year so teams arent so strapped to a bad signing? 

i know it wont fly, just ideas...
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:12 pm

When blending fantasy and reality, some things are just going to be exclusive to fantasy.

Buyouts are def one of them.

I think the buyout system is working fine, as even trading buyouts has helped franchises.

While unrealistic, it's part of the 'fun' element of all this, especially when we take on large risks in contracts. Maybe eliminating buyouts would help curtail large spending, idk, but I think we are good on the BO issue for now.

Of course, others are welcome to give their opinions as well.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:47 am

Yea well we don't need to curtail large spending.  We have too much money as is.  Buyouts in that way do encourage more bidding.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:45 am

Brain Fart here, but going to try to keep this keep simple.

LETS TAKE REAL LIFE $$$ OUT OF THIS.

Oldest player coming out of collage is on Avg 22 year old
So let just say.

#1 Any Player 22 or younger is included in the BOS DRAFT. This included ALL International player (ALL including ASIA). Player must be signed with MLB team prior to the start of our draft.

#2 Any Player older then 22 with 4 Years or less of International PRO Ball (ANY Pro -International League) and/or 4 Years or less MiLB will be a part of the BOS DRAFT (this could put the oldest player at 26).  4 years pro ball total!

#3 Any Player 27 Years or Older OR a Player with 5 years or more of International PRO Ball (ANY Pro -International League) or 5 years or more MiLB. 5 Years Total, is a FREE AGENT and Can NOT be apart of our BOS DRAFT. International player become FA once Signed and Made Official by MLB Offices. ANY Player that has pasted our BOS AA Min's is considered a #3 regardless of Age. We do not have to wait for Player to play in MLB, but can sign at any time that the BOS is open for FA. Any player in #1 or #2 above follows are current rules. 1 game played can be signed as FA, if under our AA IP/AB, player will re-enter our BOS DRAFT.

Let's just fix it for all, American and International. Based on age and Time played in PRO ball.

I think this works?

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:08 am

Few Examples.

RYU: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ryu---000hye
7 season in pro ball prior to signing with MLB at 26.
he becomes a FA

Yoan Moncada: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=moncad000joh
2 seasons in pro ball prior to signing with MLB at 19.
he becomes a part of our Draft system.

Jose Abreu: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=abreu-009jos
10 seasons in pro ball prior to signing with MLB at 26.
he becomes a FA

Jen-Ho Tseng: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=tseng-000jen
1 seasons in pro ball was signed at at 19 by MLB (out of High SCHOOL). He becomes a part of our Draft system.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:23 am

This is only for international signings right?

Because a lot of players already playing in America are older than 22 with more than 4 years experience of pro ball.  If it's for guys that are already in milb, I'm absolutely against that.  

Steven Souza would be ineligible and he's a consensus top 100 prospect (nevermind I signed him after 12 ABs lol)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=souza-001ste
8 years pro ball

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:38 am

Steven Moya, 23 years old: Signed in 2008, 6 years of MiLB

Ineligible now?  

I don't understand why you are talking about MiLB years at all...

Guys get signed at 16 all the time and never really bloom until 23, 24 and by that time they are looking at 6, 7 or 8 years of MiLB experience.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:21 pm

DmanofGod1 wrote:Steven Moya, 23 years old: Signed in 2008, 6 years of MiLB

Ineligible now?  

I don't understand why you are talking about MiLB years at all...

Guys get signed at 16 all the time and never really bloom until 23, 24 and by that time they are looking at 6, 7 or 8 years of MiLB experience.

ok let's tweet this.

Note: ANY Player that has pasted our BOS AA MLB Minimums Regardless of AGE is considered a Free Agent.

If you dont fall into any of the #1, 2, or 3 you enter the BOS Draft.

#1 Any Player 27 Years Old (Come-on old farts paid their dues let them get some $$ for there family)

#2 Any player with 5 years of International PRO Ball-ANY Pro/International League NOT  including MiLB. (Note: This rule would mostly apply to Asia & Cuban's)

#3 Any Player with 9 year of MiLB.  Note: This rule would mostly apply to American orIntl guys that sign at 16 can move to america and play in MiLB.

if 1, 2, or 3 player will NOT be apart of our BOS DRAFT and are Free Agents.
Any International player become FA once signed and Made Official by MLB Offices.
We do not have to wait for Player to play in MLB, but can sign at any time that the BOS is open for Free Agents.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Ballbasherz on Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:31 pm

Mr Nay Sayer is going to put his 2 cents in. Ive followed this whole discussion and have come to the conclusion that there seems to be just a couple of guys that want the rules tweaked everytime a situation arises.

This issue of Asians or Latinos or where ever they come from entering major league baseball does NOT have to have separate rules for every different ethnic group.

The simple solution is if they are not signed by a MLB team by the time our f/a or rookie draft comes around they can`t be drafted until next year. This seems to me to be a hell of a lot easier than having to track kids that are still in high school. I mean a kid is 19-20 years old and already has 4-5 years of proball experience. Come on be serious here. This is on the verge of insanity.

I now I`m in the minority here but Jesus this rule tweaking is getting out of control. This rule book is complex and complicated enough as it is. Personally I don`t feel like tracking some kid in Asia that just got off mama`s teat.

Like I said above some times simple is ok. It`s getting to the point that you guys want to make changes,tweaks or whatever you want to call them just for the sake of making change. Stop, just please stop. Enough is enough.

I`m off my soap box and will say nothing further on this subject.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Doug on Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:47 pm

"this rule tweaking is getting out of control. This rule book is complex and complicated enough as it is. "

I agree. This is FANTASY baseball, and Im just afraid our rule book will start getting filled with to many ifs, and unlesses , and except fors.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by HELLFISH on Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:51 pm

Sorry, it's just not going to stop.
I understand your point of view! But at the same time we are developing a GM fantasy league and not a simple fantasy league and please dont get mad at that statement. The Goal has always been GM Fantasy league not just a Keeper league.

Things are changing in Cuba, and even in Asia where kids are considering signing with MLB out of high school and once one comes and get that $ then more will follow. This has nothing to do with ethnic groups and 100% to do with the facts that there are countries Outside of the USA that play PRO Baseball and how we should treat the players that come from those league.

again this will not change with out a vote and we will have re discussion at our "winter Meeting" .

but guys that have curtain time in a PRO league should be treated like a Vet and fall under the #2 above. They should not get a rookie deal. This i do agree with. Now a kid that is 22 years old that played in Dom League for 2-3 year and then move to Milb for a few will fall under #3 and be apart of out draft.

and yes all mama`s teat kids should only be draft only players.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:24 pm

I take it as a very good sign that someone like Dustin, who benefited because of Rusney, sees his drafting as a loophole. It's the same loophole that allowed me to deal for Abreu's rookie deal, and subsequently resell it.

Those guys should never be in the draft. Period. Although Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez and Alex Guerrero have not shined yet, they should not have been in the draft either, and anyone who wanted those guys should have been the high bidder in FA.

Maybe we got off track some in trying to see how guys like Moncada could be handled, but we for sure need to get the 26 and over guys into FA and out of the draft.

We can do this simply without it being complex.

However, there are also other scenarios in play, which keep getting discussed.

We should begin to sharpen our focus, so that way when Rules Voting happens again, we can be clear on what we would like to do.

Or in the case of some of y'all, what we do not want to do.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:15 pm

What's the point of having a "Rule Talk" section on the forum if you cant talk rules! I think it''s always good to try and improve on anything i/we do in life. If we just settled for the way things are, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. MLB is constantly changing rules. The other sports do it too. It's all part of making your product better. Certain guys have the same reaction every time rules are discussed! lol This is all a discussion (maybe for entertainment purposes?) and should be looked at only to improve on things. I dont think anyone here wants to make anything anymore complicated than it already is. I'll admit I probably know half the rules and it's a little annoying needing to reference the rule book if I want to make a simple move. It's all part of having a complex league. 

With that said, I'm fine either way with whatever is decided. I'll vote when the time comes. This is something that could be voted on for next year's draft since it'll have an impact too, but that's up to Mr. Commish.

I think if anyone here wants to post an irrelevant topic in the "rule talk" forum and a bunch of guys feel like gabbing about it, then they should be able to do that, in peace!
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:51 am

Haha

Doug and Mark, although Dan made a complicated rule, it's not that complicated.  Rusney Castillo, Abreu, Cespedes are getting major league contracts.  
So they shouldn't be getting rookie contracts in our league correct?  That's Nintendo cheater stuff and unrealistic.  It's a simple fix...

I simplified it:

1)  J2 guys (kids basically) - draft eligible

2)  Veteran international league guys (old dudes) - not draft eligible.

And then I leave it to the commissioner.  It's no more work for me if Dan hashed out the details though I help him if I catch something. 

But we should listen to Doug and Mark as they represent the group of guys that don't want to go through a complicated drafting system.  If you find a guy in the minors that hasn't played in the majors yet that isn't old, you should be able to draft him.  Posting system is way too complicated.  Moncada got 30 mil as a 19 year old kid, good for him.  He won't in our league...moving along.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:59 pm

DmanofGod1 wrote:Haha

Doug and Mark, although Dan made a complicated rule, it's not that complicated.  Rusney Castillo, Abreu, Cespedes are getting major league contracts.  
So they shouldn't be getting rookie contracts in our league correct?  That's Nintendo cheater stuff and unrealistic.  It's a simple fix...

I simplified it:

1)  J2 guys (kids basically) - draft eligible

2)  Veteran international league guys (old dudes) - not draft eligible.

And then I leave it to the commissioner.  It's no more work for me if Dan hashed out the details though I help him if I catch something. 

But we should listen to Doug and Mark as they represent the group of guys that don't want to go through a complicated drafting system.  If you find a guy in the minors that hasn't played in the majors yet that isn't old, you should be able to draft him.  Posting system is way too complicated.  Moncada got 30 mil as a 19 year old kid, good for him.  He won't in our league...moving along.
i do like the idea of following mlb on this and possibly just bidding on a bonus amount thru f/a, then the player has a rookie deal. the bonus money can be paid over 1 to 3 years, like mlb. it puts our money to work. makes it fun, imo.

the rest i like, dustin.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by DmanofGod1 on Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:04 pm

Yea, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all but it won't pass.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:37 pm

DmanofGod1 wrote:Yea, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all but it won't pass.
Yup! I agree. Anything involving spending more money will never pass. This is barely a salary league when you consider the amount of salary we have, buyouts, traded cash, money paid on contracts, small contract extensions for rookies- to name a few. All that hard work on the contract page for nothing.

Fun Fact (LOL): The average team payroll for the top 16 teams in 2014 was less than $145M. The average for the league was $115M. Our $175M is barely a challenge when we use LESS than MLBs minimums on the rookie scale (still using ALL the 30 team's players), not to mention the team bonuses added. 
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:52 pm

$$$ hasn't fully became irrelevant, but it is getting there in a hurry.

I would say that in about 2 years or so, we are going to see how bad of an issue it will be....while we are in the thick of it.

I can see addressing that early.

But in a different thread!

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:34 pm

I would agree that a restructuring of the money should be done. It would make managers think twice about these huge,max long term contracts. None of which will ever come to term. The player is either bought out or retired in real life.

Maybe have a max years limit to coincide with age. For example any one 33 or older can`t get a 6 yr deal. 4 yrs is alot more realistic. You guys are always talking about being realistic and a real GM feel. Well handing these guys those kind of contracts is not realistic.

Maybe a scale like 33 and over can get 4yrs max
Then 29-32 gets 5yrs
then 24-29 can get the 6 yrs.
Just some random thoughts. Nothing more. I know thats not ideal either but maybe it`s something to debate.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:42 pm

I agree with something like that.

Altho the Miggys and the Pujols of the bunch get contracts stretching til they are like 40, that is a bit wild.

With 35/36 the 'fall of the cliff' types of ages without 'roids, giving a 33 year old longer than 4 years is a very risky proposition anyway.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:43 pm

Or even if we do not change that, have it to where anything after age 36 cannot be bought out.

I forget the buyout ages.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:00 pm

Use Miggey as an example. His contract is up at the end of the year. He will go into next season at age 32. There is no way in hell he should be given a 6 yr $25 per contract then the owner buys him out after 3-4 yrs when his number diminish. Buy the example I set up he could get 5 yrs but even then that seems like a lot.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Johnny B on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:17 pm

Ballbasherz wrote:Use Miggey as an example. His contract is up at the end of the year. He will go into next season at age 32. There is no way in hell he should be given a 6 yr $25 per contract then the owner buys him out after 3-4 yrs when his number diminish. Buy the example I set up he could get 5 yrs but even then that seems like a  lot.
Seems like the issue is more the buyouts and not the contracts. In real life, Miggy is signed thru 2023 with vesting options in '24 and 25'.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:27 pm

Agreed but we don`t use real life contracts so that point is moot. As for the buyouts I feel having just 2 is fine. Maybe curtail the trading of them so 1 team can`t stock pile them then buy out a bunch of guys. They are kind of a luxeury to have. As for my self I haven`t used them both for a while. I have trade them away tho.
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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:40 pm

We have a retirement scale, and no buyouts at age 38+.

Perhaps those are still sufficient to use.

I'd lower buyout age to 36, and put that at 33, no longer than 4 yr contract can be given, and 32 is no longer than 5 years.

Altho, that goes into your point Mark about us not getting too complicated, haha.

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Re: Moncada may spend the full year in milb, who tanks for him?

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:01 pm

I`m fighting a loosing battle as far as the complexity goes so I might as well try to add to the confusion.- Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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