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MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:26 am

Case in point

Mike Trout was called up on July 8, 2011.

2011 - minimum salary from July until end of season
2012 - 500k
2013 - 500k
2014 - 1 mil
2015 - 5.25 mil (part of extension signed)

So you can see the angels got Trout for 3 1/2 years at a minimum non arbitration salary.

In our league, we are lucky to get a rookie for two years at a minimum salary and now ppl don't like it's 2 years and 1 month.

There is nothing wrong with this rule as its similar to playoff expanded rosters which is something we don't have.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by nostratimus on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:15 am

@DmanofGod1 wrote:Well, it's no different than MLB teams.  During playoffs, rosters are expanded and the teams play the best players, not keep the rookies down because they have other capable players.

Why are there so many September call ups?  Because they can call up these rookies (who are better than what they had) and the teams still get three more non arbitration years with this late call ups.

If the clocks are forced to start in September, our league gets one more non arbitration year instead of three

Wtf...

But in the majors, don't teams have to go back to a 25-man for the playoffs?
Coming to think of it, I think we should just scrap this exemption! You want to use your player, you call him and burn the year of service. I'd even go even further and say no FA replacements if your starter gets hurt after FA signing period ends. That's why we have a 40 man. We love the realistic GM feel of this league, then any good GM will make sure he has depth too. Don't prepare yourself for injuries, too bad! Very hard line approach here but it's making is use what we have...40 man roster and salary!
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:22 am

If a player is injured past August 31st, he can be replaced with any player in your system and is not limited to your 25 man or even your 40 man.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:46 am

I agree with Tim.

I understand Dustin's point, but again, with the rookie extensions being so undermarket, unless we change that system, we should not change the extension.

See, we are given the right of control for basically a player's whole career if we choose to. While it may come at a cost of paying the player, the control element is there, which counters the arb years argument.

In real life, the Angels paid Trout an avg of 25 a year with his extension. The next Trout type here (it'll prob be Correa) will come nowhere close to that, yet his first 10 years or so will be very undermarket.

SO, unless we correct the rookie extensions, there's no pressing need to fix arb. 

The system of using Sept guys should be that it is allowed, but if you carry a guy into the playoffs, then you burn the year of service, as that is when you not only want a player, but his time is more meaningful, since the goal of playing is to get to the playoffs and try winning there. 

As it stands now, we have two very cheap first years of 400k/600k, and then up to 4 arb years that while adjusted are still very reasonable, with extensions after being undermarket.

To complain about that by wanting more cheapness is just too much. I get the mirroring the MLB aspect, but we have a comparable system with some variation due to fantasy, ESPECIALLY when we can keep guys in AA/milb while they have already crossed rookie limits. So there are ways to hold your player until his value is even more worth starting that cheap clock.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:48 am

Also, I would have to check- unless you know- but I thought if a player was not on the roster prior to sept 1, he is inelg for playoffs.

Does an injury in mlb provide an exception to that??

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:00 am

Yes injury exception allows for anyone to be called up even if they werent on 40 man. And that's what we are talking about. Injury exceptions only.

So you are telling me, that the reason you are against correcting the arb to better reflect MLB standards AND against this rule is because of...

The rookie extension?

A rule that's barely been used and to date, only like 1 or 2 guys are under market...

Trout is a once in a lifetime player, I don't think his rare extension example should be the reason we are against having rules that are similar to MLB.

I'd say look at Rizzos extension and others and it's right in line with our extensions. Our extension is only below market because usually when a player signs an extension in the MLB, it's below market...in exchange for security. I've researched our arb numbers and they are surprisingly close to similar MLB guys. We will see a greater reflection of that next year which also means higher rookie extension numbers.

In my opinion, the rookie extension rule should stand on its own as well as each rule. I don't like voting down one rule because of another. Each should stand on its own...correct?

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:05 am

They go hand-in-hand. 

We have created a system that is very favorable to rooks. 

If we were to change Arb years (to give even more favorable treatment to rooks) then of course we need to not only change extensions, but also even when we need to bring a guy up, as again, we allow them to be kept in the minors for the full year after they cross limits, and possibly even another year in AA if they do not go too far. 

You couple that with forced control on extensions/rfa after, and the system gives everything.

And you want more?

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:16 am

In our system, in almost every instance, rookies get paid more in our league than in MLB because of our 4 year arb system. Now people may complain rookies are cheap but our league reflects MLB and the fact is, for the first 6 (usually 7 year) players are under market. It shouldn't be any different here.

Now I have no problem with our arb system because we've quickened it to reflect our late call up ability. That way guy's who aren't fantasy productive aren't taking up a 40 man roster spot when they are barely playing in MLB. So they may not have to be called up as fast but they have more arb years to make sure they get paid at same pace as MLB when they are called up.

I think it's a great balance.

However, something needed to be instituted that reflected the late MLB call ups that teams do after July without losing a year of eligibility. I believe Dan came up with a great compromise of only being able to call them up when an injury occurs and it's impossible to sign a FA replacement.

What befuddles me is how this rule can get passed unanimously by everyone and then when it happens...ppl are complaining.

What's the problem here?


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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:26 am

The problem is when a team can use a player like Correa for the playoffs and not be charged a year of service.

You may say it is only "1 month," but that 1 month- or even just up to 3 week playoff run- is when you want/need a player most.

That is high quality usage.

We are allowing a team to use a player without any real consequence. 

Dan has already stated he would like the rule to be amended to where everyone is free to use guys in Sept with injuries, but IF they get carried into the playoffs, it comes at the cost of having it burn a year.

This way, if you want to use that rook for your playoff run, then you give up something in exchange. (Paying 200k is hardly anything substantial)

On your point about the system being pretty balanced, I would most definitely agree, which is why I would only look to change things if you sought to change the arb, but my opinion aligns with yours on that it should be left alone.

The issue here is using the rooks in playoffs without any real opportunity cost. And Dan does support making the amendment.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:47 pm

Also, I want to add...

I could possibly get behind the idea of this rule IF IT WAS PURELY FOR EXCEPTION.

But look at Peter. He had other guys on his 40man- and even has other guys at Correa's position- but he used this rule to EXPLOIT THE SYSTEM, and thereby got the playoff run with no time burned, which is a loophole.

So, while I would vote to scrap it or amend it like Dan wants, IF it was set up as a pure exception with no chance of any loopholes/exploitation, then that would be better. 

What we did not foresee then was how this would be exploited.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:08 pm

Well this vote isn't being scrapped. Every rule must be in place for two years before it can be revoted on.

We all knew what this rule was. It was simple, if a guy got injured, you can call up a rookie to replace him on the 40 man.

There is no exploitation here. Peter has Correa (who has been mediocre the last month) because he traded Bryce to get him. He deserves to be able to use him if another player gets hurt.

When we all unanimously agreed to this rule, it wasnt...I only agree if the rookies he replaces the injured player aren't studs.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:11 pm

I am fairly certain that Dan will choose to amend it, or have a vote on amendment.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:20 pm

From the vote thread:

When this happens you can sign a replacement player of the FA pool to keep your roster legal and to void a fine, but I suggest now you can also call up a MiLB rookie contract that is at $400K, 


So this was thought to be to AVOID A FINE, to which that is only possible if you do not have other players to use. When you do have other players to use, it is exploitation and a loophole.

Also, while he did trade Bryce to get Correa- you are right, he does deserve to use him- but the league should also have that team use the service time if the team is going to have that guy in place for the playoffs and/or he is bringing up that player in place other guys who are already on the 40 man and would keep him from being fined. 

Who he traded for Correa, or how Correa is doing, is irrelevant. 

But you are correct, the rules do state 2 years before removal, so the only options here are amend, or leave alone.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:05 pm

You are right, who the player is should not matter but that is exactly why people who voted for the rule are now against it.

Because it's someone as good as Correa.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:20 pm

That is why it feels like exploitation, though.

As, if he was legit out of other options, then it is one thing.

But when he openly mocked the system that he was going to do this to get his playoff usage without burning a year, it puts people off. 

Feels more like instead of being granted the exemption so he would avoid a fine, he found a way to use the system to get the usage without service time.

Now, I do not fault him, you, or anyone using the rule. Heck, you even suggested that I should've considered it, as we all agree to play by rules, so the best way to do it is advantageous if it is like this.

But some of us feel that it has turned into a exploitable loophole, so we want to amend it.

I prefer to have it like this, but if you bring your player to the playoffs, then that's when the time begins on the contract. Dan's idea is probably better overall, as it is a lil more thought out and goes into the bigger picture of the league stuff, etc.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:34 pm

I don`t give 2 shits what MLB teams do. What is going on here is wrong. It`s another situation of opening a can of worms before being thought through
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:55 pm

Well we play this league for a real GM experience so I care what MLB teams do.

This is the rule and it was passed 16-0 in order to replace injured or shut down guys and that's EXACTLY what it's being used for. I have heard nothing to convince me anyone is doing anything wrong except replacing injured or shut down players.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:39 pm

It`s not being used what it`s intended for. Plus you know as well as I you will NEVER replicate MLB in fantasy it`s just not possible. So there will be many things that differ.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:37 pm

We can never replicate MLB exactly but we try as much as we can.

So tell me, what's the problem here with the MLB model?  After this year, Correa will be under Houston's control for 6 more years.  Why should he only be under Peter's control for 5 more years, if it cost him a year just to call him up for last month?  What's the rational there?  Why are we trying to be overly difficult to a team or owner?

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:49 pm

The goal will always be to blend as we can. We will never be perfect, but that shouldn't deter us from trying.

Again, on this issue, it may just be a month, or even if he were to have waited for the last couple of weeks, but it's a playoff usage without any consequence. Paying out 400k in lieu of not burning a year of service time is def not comparable. 

Had his injury been something to where he was replacing that position, or a Util guy with NO OTHER GUYS available, then a clear case can be made that he's using the exemption properly.

Instead, he withheld calling Correa up specifically to take advantage of this rule. Smart, but it exposed a loophole. 

And the rule needs to be amended to either have it after we exhaust all 40man options, or make it a simple case of, "You use a guy in the playoffs, you lose a year of service."

Otherwise, guys can use a Correa type in the playoffs with no real consequence, and his initial callup was due to not being in a situation to where he was avoiding a fine. 

Keeping this with no change- and no consequence for taking your guy into a playoff run- is just going to make this worse, as in future years, people will all hold their rooks until the deadline, wait for injury, then call up for usage without burning a year. 

I'm sorry, but we do enough already for rooks, and this can lead to more pervasive thinking.

If it were for EXEMPTIONS ONLY to avoid fines and/or have a player at that position, then that's fine. But it's not. It's where one guy gets hurt, and bam, the rook gets called up while other guys stay on AAA. 

I don't get where you don't see how that is not a loophole. 

If someone wants their Correa type for their run, and they are good enough to be near contention without him, then start the clock, and work with him to win a title.

When I played Cory in the 2011 Final, he later told me that had he called up Goldy, the stats would have shown that he would have won, but he did not want to use the year of service. And so that was the tradeoff, he kept the clock preserved, but missed out on what could have been.

For now, again, there is just no tradeoff in place for the Correa types, and they are not even being called up with extreme need. They are just merely replacing another guy where others sit on AAA. 

To me, that is just Bush, which is why I will never do that myself, even if this stays unchanged.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:54 pm

And again on the Correa control, while Hou may have 6 to Peter's 5, Peter's 5 comes with a * that he controls well beyond that if he so desires, whereas in real life Correa has the option of playing out his 6 and then dipping. 

Here, Peter can just match/extend/whatever, and put the lock down. And that's fine, and his right. But it is also why the real world argument should not apply here in this instance.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:03 pm

The point is if you have a guy on your 40 man to replace an injured player you should NOT be able to call up a milb for free. If you want to start his clock then sure go for it otherwise he stays put.

I`m not picking on any specific owner either, I`m using generalizations.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:10 pm

The problem is we did vote for Injury replacement, and as Dustin pointed out earlier, we have to let that ride for 2 years at least before any pure removal.

So our only options are an amendment, or leave it be.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by nostratimus on Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:28 pm

@Ballbasherz wrote:The point is if you have a guy on your 40 man to replace an injured player you should NOT be able to call up a milb for free. If you want to start his clock then sure go for it otherwise he stays put.

I`m not picking on any specific owner either, I`m using generalizations.

I completely agree with this. Burn through you entire 40-man roster and if you still have no replacement, then call up a minor to "avoid illegal roster fine"! Correa and severino have nothing to do with avoiding a fine/illegal roster which is why many, including me (severino owner) believes this is a loophole and exploitation in the system. If you go back to previous thread about this topic, I did ask if an owner could call-up minor for exemption even if a 40-man replacement was available. That answer was never clearly answered and now we have this...

Dustin - you can talk all you want about rooks/arb salary being in line with mlb but it's not a fair comparison in our league. Why? You don't have the top 16 teams having a $175M budget every year. So when you consider all the money available in our league, rook/arb salaries are dirt cheap! Nothing to argue about changing things...just pointing out a flawed argument on your end about all things being equal IMO.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:35 pm

"I'm sorry, but we do enough already for rooks, and this can lead to more pervasive thinking."

I call bullcrap on this

1)  Fantasy relevant rookies make more in our league than MLB.  Every arb eligible player on my team will make the same or more in 2016 on my team than MLB.  (Ex: Sonny Gray - 5 mil for me, 1 mil for Oak, BillyHam - 2.5 mil for me, 500k for Cincy).  It's like that across the board.  I'm doing arb numbers for next year.  Find me a cheaper fantasy relevant rookie and I'll find you 3 more that are more expensive here. 

2)  Rookies have an extra arb year in our league

3)  Rookie extensions in our league on average are more expensive, not less than MLB extensions.  Chris Sale and Carlos Santana will make way more in their extensions here than in CWS or Cle.  Pedro Alvarez and Strasburg made more in our league this year and in the past.  Everyone else besides Bumgarner wasn't really fantasy relevant this year, had very poor seasons, were hurt or just plain cut.  Wasted money there.  Rookie extension rule isn't relevant in our league at all.  It's nothing. 

4)  We are limited to how many we can extend so rookie extension once again is barely relevant.  We can only do ONE per year while the Indians are locking both Kluber and Carrasco up to favorable contracts. Even then, there are strict guidelines that must be met even to be eligible for this.  So while it's easy to just say...but you can lock up your guy forever, the truth is, the rookie extension is barely relevant in our league due to limit and strict eligibility.        

5) MLB teams have various deadlines that affect their elibility left.  Apparently it's impossible for our league to think if a guy wasn't called up for the whole year, it shouldn't count for a whole year...  MLB can have their rookies under control for almost 7 years (Kris Bryant).  It's not possible in our league and we are lucky to have them for the full 6 years.  Then there is the midseason call ups.  After around July 10th or so, an MLB team can call up a guy, have him for half a year and still have control over him for 6 more years.  You guys are upset it is for 6 years and 1 month. 



The only thing we do for rookies is allow them to called up to the 40 man later, which is barely a concession considering sometimes they are called up by their MLB team and don't play.  Even so, this is offset by our early arbitration that makes sure guys get PAID quickly.


I call Bullcrap that rookies are treated that much better here.

They are treated worse, easy. 


Making a rule that you can call them up for the last month only because of injury is barely a concession...but at least it's something.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:49 pm

You are right Tim, the MLB doesn't have 16 teams with 175 mil budget.  You have more than 16 MLB teams with with a 175 mil budget.  You are confusing the budget with salary.  MLB teams spend tons of money on their farms, just like we do (but in a different fashion)

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:09 pm

Dustin you obsessed with what we do or don`t do for the rookies. That is not the issue. The issue is the loophole and/or the wrongful usage of the milb player.

Ji I don`t want the rule booted just amended so the loophole is closed to avoid further issues.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:15 pm

To be fair to Dustin, he is answering my points. 

To be fair to me, I was not comparing what we did for our rooks as compared to our MLB, I was pointing out how great our system is for rooks IN OUR SYSTEM. 

We created a system to try mirroring some of the MLB, but we also put a fantasy perspective into it. Now, JB did most of the creating, with me going over ideas, but I also added my input and helped structure all of this. 

We have a system that favors carrying rookies and younger players. And we do a lot for them. 

Comparing them to how MLB treats their rooks was not what I was saying.

And the extension thing is relevant because while we are limited on what we can do, we still have that option available. And if you are full of rooks, we still give a way to control with RFA + sizable discount. 

Either way, the control is there. 

As far as this, Dan's idea is perfect. Give expanded usage in Sept, and if you choose to carry your guy in the playoffs, you choose to burn a year. This way you give a tradeoff for having him in your playoff run. 

It's fair.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:29 pm

Yea I see it as the same Mark.

I thought of this rule as a late September call up rule that could be used for injuries.  I didn't see calling up rookies for injuries as a loophole, just a similar process to MLB.  I have no idea why you guys think it is so wrong.   

I guess that's where we differ.

All things can't translate from MLB to fantasy, but when they can..I'd like to stay aligned as close as possible to MLB and not just make up our own rules.  It gives the realistic feel that makes our league so great. 

I understand your guys points as you guys saw the rule as just "an emergency, uh oh I have no one to fill this spot and I'm gonna get fined rule."  I didn't think the rule of that and see nothing wrong with callup up guys for the 2nd half of the season and still having 6 years of control on them....just as is normal.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:45 pm

Feels like exploitation, as it wasn't used with proper intent on Correa.

I do think we erred in making all rooks essentially super 2s, so that point you have been making has not gone unnoticed. 

I would love something to be done with integrating Tim's performance cap idea with a change in rookie contracts to better reflect MLB, but take into account our league size/overall $$$, etc.

But for monumental changes like that, I'd prefer them to be when we go to 20, as once we get the math done for proper expansion, we can work more to mirror MLB.

I don't know how far you wanna go in mirroring MLB, but it is worth exploring various areas, as we were never intended to stay as is forever; we knew we'd always tinker.

Our core set up is great, but I'm always up for improvement.

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