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MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:22 pm

Until then, how is this for an idea:

Instead of Sept 1 callups in MLB, we have Aug 1 callups.

Rooks get paid, but do not burn a year of service UNLESS you decide to carry them into the post season. They can help you get there, but if you take them for your playoff run, you burn the year. 

EXEMPTION of burned year only if there is injuries to where a Milb must be up after all other men on 40man are exhausted. Ie, you have two SS only, and your MLB SS gets hurt which necessitates the milb guy.

Does something like that satisfy everyone?

My sticking point on this has been the playoff usage without a burned year, as it doesn't seem fair not having the tradeoff when you get the guy for the run you need. But in something like this, we get expanded usage, even without injury, but then if there is serious injury and the rook is the only person to fill the spot, then he can be used without service time.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by thephilipbrown on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:28 pm

I'm with Dustin on this. I will say the intention of the rule was to call up players in order to avoid a fine (last yr I had a ton of P injuries after FA deadline). 

Suggestions: 1) Only able to call up IF if IF hurt, OF or P. 2) Eliminate fines after FA deadline has passed. 3) Make call ups be when you have no other option. If I have an available SS on my 40, gotta use him before the prospect (you can use the prospect if you have other options, but you gotta burn the year + money).

I'm against any performance based salary/cap structure. Things are already complicated enough. You guys can discuss it all you want, but I'll be voting against it. 

That's all I have to say about that.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by thephilipbrown on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:31 pm

There is no service time burned in MLB postseason. I am in favor of the no other options part
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:40 pm

I understand your guys points but I won't vote for anything removing a year of the players control. I knew what I voted yes for, a late September call up for injury only, not just a "don't get fined" callup.

MLB would never have a rule...hey, Houston, you can play Correa until playoffs, but if he plays in playoffs, you lose a year of control.

And the rule shouldn't be here either.

Agree to disagree lol

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:42 pm

@thephilipbrown wrote:I'm with Dustin on this. I will say the intention of the rule was to call up players in order to avoid a fine (last yr I had a ton of P injuries after FA deadline). 

Suggestions: 1) Only able to call up IF if IF hurt, OF or P. 2) Eliminate fines after FA deadline has passed. 3) Make call ups be when you have no other option. If I have an available SS on my 40, gotta use him before the prospect (you can use the prospect if you have other options, but you gotta burn the year + money).

I'm against any performance based salary/cap structure. Things are already complicated enough. You guys can discuss it all you want, but I'll be voting against it. 

That's all I have to say about that.


No other options, and a strict enforcement of that, is very fair.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:46 pm

MLB also has the clocks run with usage. 

Houston isn't going to MLB, "Hey MLB, let me just have Correa up here in the bigs without his service time starting."

So...it goes both ways lolol

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by nostratimus on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:55 pm

@DmanofGod1 wrote:You are right Tim, the MLB doesn't have 16 teams with 175 mil budget.  You have more than 16 MLB teams with with a 175 mil budget.  You are confusing the budget with salary.  MLB teams spend tons of money on their farms, just like we do (but in a different fashion)

No confusion here. When our single A players start becoming a part of our budget, then I hear you. So in our league, budget = salary since unused money can be rolled over. I actually have no interesting this at all...I'm fine with rookie/arb contracts as they stand.

The point that Mark,JI, and I, and possibly Dan is that this exemption rule is not being used as intended. I'd scrap it all together but if it needs to be amended, it should be that all 40-man players are looked at first. With that said, if you only have 34 guys signed, then you must replace injured player thru FA. The minors exemption was always intended to give owners a chance to fill a hole where they couldn't due to multiple injuries. Not this crap of overlooking JJ hardy or Reyes to call up correa.

If all else fails, I can at least agree with phil's suggestion that exemption player replaces same position (ie, inf, of , sp, rp). I'd even include it so that DH only position can't get filled since any batter can take their spot.

Nothing can be done now until the offseason...let's play some BoS playoff ball!
Toe vs Akron in finals. Matz gets the exemption call up to win steal some cats and win it all!!!
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by nostratimus on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:59 pm

@nostratimus wrote:
@DmanofGod1 wrote:You are right Tim, the MLB doesn't have 16 teams with 175 mil budget.  You have more than 16 MLB teams with with a 175 mil budget.  You are confusing the budget with salary.  MLB teams spend tons of money on their farms, just like we do (but in a different fashion)

No confusion here. When our single A players start becoming a part of our budget, then I hear you. So in our league, budget = salary since unused money can be rolled over. I actually have no interesting this at all...I'm fine with rookie/arb contracts as they stand.

The point that Mark,JI, and I, and possibly Dan are trying to make isthat this exemption rule is not being used as intended. I'd scrap it all together but if it needs to be amended, it should be that all 40-man players are looked at first. With that said, if you only have 34 guys signed, then you must replace injured player thru FA.  The minors exemption was always intended to give owners a chance to fill a hole where they couldn't due to multiple injuries. Not this crap of overlooking JJ hardy or Reyes to call up correa (or severino replacing a bat...just playing by the rules so nothing wrong has been done to date).

If all else fails, I can at least agree with phil's suggestion that exemption player replaces same position (ie, inf, of , sp, rp). I'd even include it so that DH only position can't get filled since any batter can take their spot.

Nothing can be done now until the offseason...let's play some BoS playoff ball!
Toe vs Akron in finals. Matz gets the exemption call up to win steal some cats and win it all!!!
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:04 pm

Well that's where I see it differently. A full year of service time should always be a full year (or at least majority of year, certainly not a month). But i do see it as the clock starts running as it forces you to start the service time the following year, no take backs.

Similar to how it is in MLB but just not as early as July and only for injury.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:30 pm

It seems a little like you are confused because we aren't talking about the same thing. I surely wasn't talking about the 10-50k cost of a singke A player salary to the budget lol.

I paid 24 million to obtain Billy Hamilton and Nick Castellanos. That was not salary and when MLB teams spend millions scouting and signing milb guys, it also isn't a part of their player salaries. I've spent millions and millions on obtaining draft picks and milb guys but it's all just too easy for someone to come along now, look at my team and complain rookies are dirt cheap.

I bet they aren't factoring in the 12 mil for Billy ham into his salary? Or the approximate 12 mil I paid 2 years ago for Durhams 1st round pick this year. While the actual salary of my players are cheap, the cost to my budget was not. I have no freaking money in my warchest as building my farm has consumed by budget.

And it's similar to MLB budgets and what the pirates have built their franchise on. They have a medium salary cost but a very high scouting and farm budget.

They certainly are not the same and I would wager more than 16 MLB teams spend over 175 mil on their budget even if much less than 16 spend 175 mil in player salary.

So a 175 mil budget is very typical of an MLB team. Spend it on what ya want. There are options in our league just like in MLB. Doesn't have to all go on players. I don't believe rookie contracts are any more valuable here than in real MLB. Most likely there was a lot more cost to the budget of that rookie than just his current salary.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:40 pm

It's just different.

Here, teams can take a couple seasons to do what you did, or longer to do whatever PB is trying to do. 

People here can- and have- punted entire seasons without consequence. In real life, there is more to answer to. 

But yes, your acquisition cost has def been overlooked.

And onto your other post:

I actually think that could end up as a good compromise. I would still argue that a playoff run is equivalent to a year because a) the playoffs are special and b) that is when you want a player most, as if a guy was on Texas all year, his usage is not as valuable as the 1 or 2 months of Correa on playoff Sud. 

But, we do not have the actual day usage on our service time clocks and use the years, except for this newly created exemption. 

Not saying I am fully in support of it yet, but I can see a potential good compromise with what you suggested, as the team can do the replacing with the rook, and then they must have the clock start the following year. Still AA elg most likely, but being paid and clock running. 

I would tie that to PB's suggestion of "call up for inj if no other options" to create a mechanism for a callup, but something that feels fair to everyone.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:27 am

the discussion is great.

this put me back to my train of thought with some fix.
1) i like to allow playoff race teams to use all players in an expanded sept roster (NOT PLAYOFFS). these team have worked hard for 19 weeks and weeks 20-22 we should have a open 40 man roster. the there week will give you 3 week to set up your playoff roster.

2) during week 20-22 rookies are paid 200K but contract is frozen. if you use the rookie in yahoo the clock will not start but that rookie contract will begin the following season (you will not be able to send back to AA).

3) come playoffs glove are off these are the DOG days. back to 25 Man roster. if you use a rookie in the playoff the clock starts.

The Rule we have in place should have been to avoid Fine(s) but in voting we expanded to any DL move. I still like the rule and dont think its be over used. but i still would like to adjust our


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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:51 am

So just to be clear, if you have any rookies in the playoffs, it's like they've been called up the whole year, correct?

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:33 am

Yes that is what i suggest. for playoff you go back to 25 Man Roster and any rookie used clock starts on his deal

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:55 am

After all the back n forth, I think Dustin n I may have found something.

We could do what you suggested Dan, but then still allow for exemptions for injury to where the clock isn't used, but the player starts the clock the following season. But it would be in case of extreme exemption n not just any injury, but one where you've exhausted your 40man first.

So all rookies allowed on all teams for those last 3 weeks, and if one is absolutely needed due to injury, then exemption with clock starting following year; otherwise if you take rook into playoffs, you start clock.

Seems like perfect compromise to me. Correa wasn't extreme exemption since Peter had other guys, but I believe Baez was to Darrin since he had no other SS. 

Does that work for everyone???

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:43 am

The only flaw I see is that the player being called up will probably have to be called up next year anyway because of surpassing the milb limits. So really it`s still a freebie.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:42 pm

Well yeah, but look at Darrin with Baez. Sure, he should happily start the clock n be grateful he had SS on reserve, but he could have also opted not to do anything n play without SS.

But in his situation, there's a pressing need, whereas Correa was more of a freebie exploitation.

Baez would qualify for AA next year n could be sat down, but with my proposal, Darrin gets usage with no clock, but fresh next year.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:03 pm

Thats the problem. Being able to use these kids for free. The teams in the playoffs are good and don`t need another advantage. Having a championship possibly decided on by who has the better milb is wrong
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:03 pm

Thats the problem. Being able to use these kids for free.  The teams in the playoffs are good and don`t need another advantage. Having a championship possibly decided on by who has the better milb is wrong
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:44 pm

That is very fair. 

However, I do understand some of Dustin's previous concerns with our system/rooks in general, and we did have an injury exemption voted in. 

So we have to move forward with something, at least for another year.

That's why I think my solution is the compromise. We let people all use players for the 3 weeks, and when playoffs begin, then we find out if any true injury exemptions are necessary. 

This is also makes it where someone does not get an inj call up on the first day, but then two weeks later have a viable replacement.

So, all rooks for the 3 weeks, then when it is time to submit playoff rosters, if you have a true exemption, you get the usage without burning a year (but have to start the next year), but if not and you still wanna bring a rook into playoffs, then you burn the year. 

Without something like this, the other side will keep arguing for any and all injury exemptions, and our side will want no inj exemptions, and playoff usage = burning a year, which is still my preferred option.

But I am willing to find a good compromise to make it all sorta work for everyone.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by nostratimus on Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:58 pm

Integrity wrote:After all the back n forth, I think Dustin n I may have found something.

We could do what you suggested Dan, but then still allow for exemptions for injury to where the clock isn't used, but the player starts the clock the following season. But it would be in case of extreme exemption n not just any injury, but one where you've exhausted your 40man first.

So all rookies allowed on all teams for those last 3 weeks, and if one is absolutely needed due to injury, then exemption with clock starting following year; otherwise if you take rook into playoffs, you start clock.

Seems like perfect compromise to me. Correa wasn't extreme exemption since Peter had other guys, but I believe Baez was to Darrin since he had no other SS. 

Does that work for everyone???

If an amendment is made in the offseason that's in line with something like the above, then to think of a future loophole, we should add you can't DFA players to force a "no options" call up. For example, let's say Darrin had Cliff Pennington as his SS back up. After Tulo got hurt, he would try to DFA Pennington so he can go right to Baez.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:00 pm

Agreed.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:45 pm

As usual a rule is implemented with out proper input and thought. It`s come to the point where there should be no rules changes during the season. All changes be done off season where they can be discussed and put up to a vote. This putting rules in during the season just causes too many problems
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:58 pm

Well...this was voted in last December, during the off-season voting.

Now, in the thread, Dan said it would be "to avoid a fine," but Dustin, and perhaps others, state that they believed it was for any injury replacement.

We have seen this rule in use this year, and this is why there is discussion, but given the 2yr thing, we have to either leave alone, or amend somehow.

So the focus on this discussion needs to be how to proceed forward, as we cannot scrap, and leaving alone seems to go against what many of us want.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:10 pm

So if it was intended to avoid a fine why is it being allowed as injury replacement then.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:24 pm

Well, if a guy is injured, then a fine can/will occur when you do not have someone in your lineup for the set number of days. 

The idea behind this was great, as it allowed us to bring up guys to replace the injured ones without burning the year. 

But as we see in Correa/Matz situations, the exploitation allows them to bring up guys in place of other viable options, whereas in the Baez situation, the rule is serving the function that it seems intended to.

I just think if we take Dan's idea and blend it with mine, then we will have something that allows for usage, and true exemptions for playoffs, which should be a solution to move forward with.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by DmanofGod1 on Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:38 pm

I appreciate JIs compromise but I will be voting against any rule that makes you use a whole year of eligibility for the last three weeks of a season when MLB does no such thing. No MLB team is complaining, it's not fair dodgers can call up Seager and affect the outcome of the playoffs!!

I know I'm in minority.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:46 pm

Idk why this was even brought up in the first place. Ever since the beginning of this league it`s always been when you bring up a milb you start his clock. There is no reason to be changing this now except for the ones who want to exploit the rules. Don`t give me that it`s better for the league argument either. Change is not always good.
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by HELLFISH on Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:00 pm

MARK you voted yes to the rule.
am all fo r let it play out this year and next year.

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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

Post by Ballbasherz on Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:06 pm

Maybe so but not for the way it`s being used now or else I would have voted no. I can`t believe as the commish you are allowing the abuse of this rule. The way it`s being abused is purely not the intent when it was put up for vote
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Re: MiLB Late Season Call-Up / Expanded Roster (Rule Suggestion)

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