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BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

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BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Admin on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:33 pm

Calm down! CALM DOWN!!!!

So whenever we mention something as important as this (stats), we always say we need a year or 2 in advance. Well this is the year or 2. Right before this BIG f/a period, and before next year's f/a period. So I'd like to talk about a couple small tweaks for 2013.

Current Settings:

  1. Hitters: R 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB K AVG
  2. Pitchers: W L QS HLD SV K ERA WHIP HR
Hitters - First I'd like to say, fantasy stats will never be perfect or tell the entire story. We can all agree to that. We really just want to cover all aspects of the game and avoid redundancy. It's easy to do with like stats. ie. Hits and Avg or HR and SLG.

The basic 5 set for hitters is - R,HR,RBI,AVG,SB. BB is a major stat. I like using BB over OBA because we have AVG and OBA is a bit of AVG. 2B and 3B are my preference. Again, if you use SLG or OPS to try and fit 2B and 3B in, you are giving HR hitters more value. I really want to use Net SBs. Yahoo does have it. Players should not get credit for a SB and they arent going to get a penalty for a CS. I'd like to remove K's. When a batter K's, it's not the worst thing that could have happened. It's much better than a GDP! I dont think it's all that bad. So with removing K's, I'd like to bring back Errors. We need some kind of value for player's fielding. Errors dont tell us how good a fielder is by any means, but it's all yahoo offers along with Fielding PCT which I'm not too crazy about for a lot of reasons. We all will be using the same positions so the error playing field will be equal.

So to sum up hitting. Change SB to NSB and remove K and add E. Leaves us with:

R 2B 3B HR RBI NSB BB AVG E

Now pitching!

With a 13 pitcher Max. Using 144 of the 150 starters (if we all use a 9-man rotation). Id like to bring back the IP. While we are using all of the starters anyway and teams cant load up on SP, it is a good stat to measure stamina, which we currently dont have.

By adding IP, I want to remove losses and add Net Saves. I dont think the Saves and Holds guys should get credit for the good stuff without being responsible for the bad.

QS, K, ERA WHIP, and HR I am happy with. QS is a nice stat. K's show dominance. HR shows how good a pitcher can keep the ball in the park. ERA and WHIP we all know. Wins. Eh, wins are wins. Pitchers dont have much control over their wins but winning is all part of the game so Wins works.

Changes: Losses out. IP in. Change SV to NSV. New look...

IP W QS HLD NSV K ERA WHIP HR

I really think the innings are important. Especially with us using all the pitching now. It was give us an almost even set of stats for quality vs quantity starters. We really want owners to play the matchups vs letting everyone go.

IP/W/K/QS <> ERA WHIP HR.

Just my thoughts. Share yours. I dont want to get into a heated Stat debate like we have in the past. It'll never be perfect. We can only work with what yahoo provides. I think these 2 new lines would be an improvement. Just my 2 cents. Maybe we can all come to an agreement for 2013. That's all for now!

-JB

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:49 pm

I'm 100% in favor of the changes.

Gotta get to what tells the story of a team's strength and these changes, while not perfect, are better than what we currently got.

I'd change for 2012 but the vast majority may not want to, but 2013 works.

We'll have our year and two FA periods in advance, so no one can say anything about not having time to prepare.

Let's do it!!

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Admin on Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:00 pm

well you know me! id love to do this for 2012. I dont think the changes are team building changers.

We are all after solid talent 1 way or another.

Changing Losses to IP would be a nice one to do this year. By losing the Losses changing SV to NSV would make a lot of sense. The only guys this would effect is the guys that loaded up on crappy RP which non of us have, yet! NSB wouldnt be a problem for building. The fielding could be a bit quick on all of us, but I'd role with it and make adjustments. I have no clue what my team errors look like at the moment. Could make this a whole lot more fun. And me persoanally, I have built for hitters K's. I just dont think its that important. I wouldnt really care if they disappeared from an owners POV

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:26 pm

I`m ok for most of this except for IP. In my mind all that does is favor the work horses of the league like Doc, Cliff Lee or Shields just to name a couple. The stat really doen`t tell you much other than they can pitch alot of innings and go deep into the game. After you get past these guys you`re lucky to find a SP that goes 6 innings anymore hence the stat is skewed. I`m not sure what else yahoo offers but it should be better than this if. If there are no other suitable options I say keep the L and scrap IP. I`ll get off my soap box now. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in.
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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:42 pm

Just thought of another point too. I brought this up last year also. I think we should add 1b also for this reason. If a player goes 3-4 with 2 double and a single he gets credit for 3 hits in his b/a and the 2-2b in the doubles category. Now if a player goes 3-3 3-4 or any combo you want with all singles all he gets credit for is his b/a. Now if we add 1b the players are all on equal ground. It gives the singles guy just as much value as the big boppers. This also gives all player equal credit for everything they do offensively. Now if we do do this we`d have to add a pitching category to even things out so keep the losses and then add the IP. So in essence we add 2 more categories ( 1 pitching 1 batting) instead of swapping the others. Ok I`m done for sure this time.
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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by nostratimus on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:05 pm

I agree with Mark in that I'd rather keep L and keep IP out. By adding IP, I don't see a lineup strategy, only owners that will start anybody and everybody to get the innings. With L's, at least it'll make an owner think twice about starting a mediocre pitcher or playing against a hot team.

Now I disagree with Mark about adding 1b's. Those players are rewarded with their BA. However, the example about a line of 3-4, 2 2B's is more favourable than 3-4 (all singles) Well, we're trying to reward players with a little more pop, right?

I like the NSB and NSV so I'm not all about saying no to everything. Very Happy
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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:49 pm

nostratimus wrote:I agree with Mark in that I'd rather keep L and keep IP out. By adding IP, I don't see a lineup strategy, only owners that will start anybody and everybody to get the innings. With L's, at least it'll make an owner think twice about starting a mediocre pitcher or playing against a hot team.

Now I disagree with Mark about adding 1b's. Those players are rewarded with their BA. However, the example about a line of 3-4, 2 2B's is more favourable than 3-4 (all singles) Well, we're trying to reward players with a little more pop, right?

I like the NSB and NSV so I'm not all about saying no to everything. Very Happy

I THINK that I agree with all of the above. It pretty much goes along with my way of feeling. Smile But apparently I'm wading into a 'pretty heated discussion' here, so I'm gonna tread lightly.

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:53 pm

nothing heated

just a discussion

nothing is being forced or anything.......we're just always tryin to improve the game for all of us....that's all

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:26 pm

Ok, that's cool to know. This league is impressive even if I haven't played a game yet in BoS. This is probably the first league I've been in, aside from local only leagues, (all friends leagues), where someone hasn't shown their immaturity and eventually just quit. Mostly it was because they didn't get their way, and then tried to ruin the league.

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Doug on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:45 pm

I don't think any of the changes are deal breakers. The best players will still be the best players. I think adding IP is fine, because an owner would have to weigh the chances of winning IP against losing WHIP and ERA if his 5th starter blows up. I wouldn't oppose any of tese changes.

Doug
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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Ballbasherz on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:10 pm

Perry if you have something to say please do. all comments pro or con are welcome. this is how we make the league better for all of us.
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Post by Admin on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:15 pm

nostratimus wrote:I agree with Mark in that I'd rather keep L and keep IP out. By adding IP, I don't see a lineup strategy, only owners that will start anybody and everybody to get the innings. With L's, at least it'll make an owner think twice about starting a mediocre pitcher or playing against a hot team.

Now I disagree with Mark about adding 1b's. Those players are rewarded with their BA. However, the example about a line of 3-4, 2 2B's is more favourable than 3-4 (all singles) Well, we're trying to reward players with a little more pop, right?

I like the NSB and NSV so I'm not all about saying no to everything. Very Happy

As i mentioned Tim, there are 150 SP in the game. 30 teams X 5 man rotations. We have 16 teams X 9 man rotations. That's 144. We WILL be using anybody and everybody, period. So what makes IP so great is we all will have 9 starters and the pitchers that can go deep into games will reward teams.

That is a HUGE deal guys! A pitcher that can take his team into the 8th or 9th innings. Stamina for a SP is a major factor. It seems like you're writing guys like halladay, verlander, or kershaw off like pitching 220-250 ip isnt a big deal. It is pretty major. This isnt a 12 team league anymore. We wont have ready SP in f/a. Teams will be scrapping for SP, having 5th starters from MLB teams going, and it'll hurt a staff big time. This also brings CGs back in a way too.

Everyone here likes quality starts, right? Well what is rule #1 of earning a QS? Answer: Pitching 6 innings! Why? Because measuring a pitchers stamina is important!
I really think this is a no brainer. It makes the real work horses earn their value. Guys arent work horses because anyone can do it. They should be rewarded. And as I mentioned, we are going to be using every SP in the game. You cant pile the SP in vs your opponent, not with a 13 pitcher max either.

As for singles. They arent significant like extra base hits. They are covered in AVG. 2B 3B HR is our slugging broken down. It's hard to compare a single to an extra base hit. Extra base hits drive in runs and put runners into scoring position. I wouldnt want to use XBH only. I like others like to see the 2B 3B HR.

Losses, well to me... they need to go. It pretty much tells us nothing about a SP. They are as bad as wins, but I can see keeping wins just because they are one of the original stats, like batting avg. Pitchers really have no control over either of these other than they must pitch well. They have control over their offense scoring runs, their defense fielding the ball, or the bullpen holding the lead. If they do suck enough to lose they will be punished in ERA WHIP, possible HR, and IP by being pulled.

Just sharing my thoughts. I've had my head in a stat book for a few weeks now so I kinda have a whole new perspective on things. Everyone has their own ideas so it's hard to make people see your POV.

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Post by Ballbasherz on Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:32 am


I see you POV on all the issuse but I still feel that singles should be added. yes the extra base hits should be rewarded and they are with their own separate categories. These guys are getting double the credit for getting a hit where as a singles guy only gets gets credit in b/a. To me thats not right. If we`re going to reward hitters lets reward them all equally.If you have a bunch of doubles hitters on your team chances are you`ll win that cat most weeks so the same should go for all hitters. Equality for all it`s a union thing haha
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Post by nostratimus on Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:09 am

Bravo, you have justified your POV and maybe hearing it a second time has helped me understand your rationale. I'm good with IP over L!
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Post by Admin on Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:57 am

Believe me mark, id like to remove avg all together and just use single double triple homer, but I can still remember year 1 when we didn't use avg and how much I disliked not seeing avg next to each players name.

By having singles and avg, you are giving a Juan Pierre more value with multiple cats on singles. It's kinda equalizing singles, doubles, tripled, and homers, other than when you smack a home run you get a run and rbi along with it.

Juan Pierre, hits a single. 1 point single, 1 for 1 on avg.
Albert Pujols hits a double. 1 point 2b, 1 for 1 avg.

A double is a bigger deal. A run driving hit leaving the hitter in scoring position but they are both rewarded the same as far as a stat count.

Weighted stats maybe? X amount of points for each stats?

It'll be nice to see what yahoo offers us on thursday.


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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by thephilipbrown on Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:55 am

I would argue against using errors bc it's completely arbitrary as to who is assigned (or not assigned) an error on a given play. All it shows us is scorekeeper's biases.
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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by bshirt7 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:03 pm

I have no problem with the changes. Maybe instead of errors, we could use Feilding Pct? Just a thought. I have been in some roto leagues where it was used in lieu of errors.
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Post by Guest on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:24 pm

All I have to say right now is that this is the first lg. I've been in that will listen to all lg. members and then try to adjust, or fix, things. what a concept, lol. I think that it is a good thing too. I'll try to not be shy about throwing my 2 cents in, but right now I'm kind of a 'wallflower' and not saying much because I'm finding out that if I'll just wait and read what you all type about, or look at the rule book, most of my questions have already been answered.

Hey, some of the leagues I've been in kinda 'frown' on folks asking questions or making suggestions, yeah, they didn't seem to last a long time. I just knew a good lg., the way I wanted it to be in my head, existed. I believe I have finally found it!

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Admin on Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:06 pm

we can all agree fielding pct and errors suck, in the sense of evaluating a fielder. BUT, it's all yahoo has to offer for fielding AND fielding is a huge part of the game.

Errors doesnt tell us about a fielders range. An outfielder (like Ryan Braun) may make 1 or 2 errors all year. The fact is, he doesnt get to that many balls and if any of you didnt realize, which most wouldnt from his hitting, he is an awful outfielder.

The thing I do like about errors is it's a raw number. It's not some pct rating that needs an entire season to see the big picture. If a guy makes 1 error during a matchup his fielding rating is going to be way off the charts. It's not a stat that should be used on a weekly basis. Errors i guess you could say is, for fantasy purposes.

Bottom line is, it doesnt tell us what kid of fielder a player is, but it tells us what the player does when he actually gets to the ball.

If a team has a shortstop that makes 5 errors vs a team that has a SS that makes 30 errors, it's a noticeable difference. Errors are errors. They are bad.

We need some kind of fielding and I think errors is the better of the 2.

Anyone could say one or the others suck. But i think we need to pick one. And error here or there happen. Guys that make a significant amount should be penalized, i think.

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:06 am

I agree with Mark on the fact that if we are cating doubles triples homers etc. then it only makes sense to do singles as well. I also Like IP over losses as well .

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Admin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:30 am

How would u work it in Matt?

I see singles in avg. Xbh are a little more significant. Do you disagree with how slugging pct is calculated? Is a team that out singles a team 35-34 equal to a team that out homers a team 25-10? That's what it would be!

Tell me how you would work it into what we have now without being redundant, please.

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Post by nostratimus on Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:49 pm

Bravo wrote:we can all agree fielding pct and errors suck, in the sense of evaluating a fielder. BUT, it's all yahoo has to offer for fielding AND fielding is a huge part of the game.

Errors doesnt tell us about a fielders range. An outfielder (like Ryan Braun) may make 1 or 2 errors all year. The fact is, he doesnt get to that many balls and if any of you didnt realize, which most wouldnt from his hitting, he is an awful outfielder.

The thing I do like about errors is it's a raw number. It's not some pct rating that needs an entire season to see the big picture. If a guy makes 1 error during a matchup his fielding rating is going to be way off the charts. It's not a stat that should be used on a weekly basis. Errors i guess you could say is, for fantasy purposes.

Bottom line is, it doesnt tell us what kid of fielder a player is, but it tells us what the player does when he actually gets to the ball.

If a team has a shortstop that makes 5 errors vs a team that has a SS that makes 30 errors, it's a noticeable difference. Errors are errors. They are bad.

We need some kind of fielding and I think errors is the better of the 2.

Anyone could say one or the others suck. But i think we need to pick one. And error here or there happen. Guys that make a significant amount should be penalized, i think.

If both are bad choices, I'd rather stick with K's. Even if E and Fielding are good options, I'd rather stick with K's. Just my opinion. K's may not be the worse thing ever at a plate appearance but it sure sucks when you strike out over 200 times a year.
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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Admin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:10 am

My 2nd thought was sub singles for k's. I dont like that either tho. Mark mentioned using singles to make singles hitter equal to home run hitters but in reality they're not. There is a reason why ichiro was never ranked in the top 10, ever! And he is the king of singles. With adding singles.and not increasing Xb hits somewhere else it throws value way out of sack.

Errors to me is ok. It tells us what the guy does when he has an opportunity. It's not the grand old stat to analyze a fielder and many will argue what is. I think its plain and simple. You can pretty much get an idea of who will have 1 error or 15 or 30. We used it year 1 and probably shouldn't have turned back.

Innings for losses.are.my biggest. Net stats I think would make us a deeper league by giving more efficient players their due value.

Errors expands us to not only hitting, but to a major part of the game in fielding.

Maybe yahoo adds.more, we'll see hopefully today.

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Post by Ballbasherz on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:14 am

You misunderstood my thoughts. I`m not trying to make singles hitters equal to Hr hitters. All I want is to have every hit count equally in the stats. The singles guy gets screwed because he only gets BA credit for 1b hits where as all the extra base hits get double credit in the Ba cat AND the individual hits cat.(2b 3b hr). Just want everything to be equal and fair and the way it is now it`s not. This is not a game changer it`s just giving equal credit where it`s due.
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Post by Admin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:39 am

The only way I see if possible is if the stats were weighted. 1 point single, 2 point double, 3 point triple, and 4 point HR. 1 point for each is not equal. I just assume use total bases instead.


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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Admin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:50 am

Total bases may actually be a better way to measure this in a weekly h2h match. Cuz really, when 2 teams play in really life if Doesnt matter who had the most singles doubles etc, but getting 1 win for the total bases could make more sense. This opens up 2 cats too. Maybe hat slugging pct to measure who was more effecient with TBs.

R RBI NSB AVG SLG E BB K TB

looks like a much nicer line to me!

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:52 am

dropping HRs is a lil bold tho

that's kind of a staple of the game

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:53 am

id say get rid of SLG and put HR back and instead of TB, have XBH

though that counts HRs twice

we need something that covers 2b/3b in one thing without homers lol

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Re: BoS - Back to Stats! Again?!?!? F*ck!

Post by Admin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:03 am

Yeah, gotta avoid double dipping hrs which is easy to do with all the stats available.


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Post by Admin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:04 am

U get 4 points in TB and slugging goes up so they aren't being left out, you just don't see the cat HR itself.

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