Pitts/Arizona Dirk Trade

I wanted to post my opinion of the Dirk trade, but I also didn't want to interfere with the process. So now that Sam has approved it, I would like to express a few things. I normally don't express my opinion publicly on any trade unless I am asked to in this forum or over chat or something. However, since MY opinion of this trade is that it was very lopsided, I will like to say why. My intention isn't to offend Pitts or Arizona, so my apologies if I do.

If you erase the names off who was traded in this deal you are essentially trading:

Fringe top 10 player
Cash
Pick

for

Fringe top 50 player
Fringe top 100 player

There are essentially two reasons to make a trade, to make your team better now, or better later. It is evident that Pitt is trying to rebuild and he is trying to make his team better later. However I do not see how this trade does that. If the two players he received were 2nd year players and ranked the way they did above, I would have no issues with this deal. The reason being that more likely than not they will improve further. However, the two players that he received have pretty much hit their respective ceilings. If you were dealing draft picks, this deal is essentially the 10th pick for the 48th and 96th picks. I don't see how that deal goes down. Yes, I know that this is a keeper league and cash is involved, but if he is rebuilding, he isn't saving any money now, or next year. His savings comes in year 3, in which his rebuilding process should be complete.

I felt as though when Darrin traded Lebron to build for the future, was an ideal trade. He was in a similar circumstance, where he traded a top tier player but he got younger, more upside players, and in my opinion, better players. That trade was:

Top 2 player
Cash

for

Top 20 player
Top 5 rookie
Rookie selected in the lottery
Rookie selected in the mid-first round
2013 first round pick

Yes, Lebron is younger and better than Dirk, however the difference between the two doesn't equate the difference that Pitts received in that deal for Dirk. I could argue that the top 20 player (Bynum) is worth the top 50 and top 100 players alone. Even still, I personally wouldn't be sure to trade that top 20 player for those two players.

Again this is my opinion, and my opinion may differ greatly from everyone else's, but again, my opinion is that this deal doesn't help Pitts in any fashion.

Help him in any fashion?

Thats a little strong. Dirk is a top 10 player but hes 33 and plays a position in PF that doesnt take kindly to age.

Also Neal needed quantity, not quality. Hes having trouble fielding 12 good players and this gives him two solid players for one player.

3rd, money. Dirk makes max money and he will be making max at 36, unlike the other two guys who are cheaper.

Dirk is a great player but Pitt cant win it all anytime soon so might as well use him to get on the right side of age, money and needed roster spots.

Also I know we don't want to think ahead but let's keep in mind what a huge year of free agency 2014 will be when Pitt was able to drop a 25 mil 36 yr old off his salary.

He can now go after young players that can't be matched

For example a team that might have
John Wall
Evan Turner
Derrick Favors
Al Horford &
Derrick Favors
But can only match two of them...

Point 1:
PF's don't age kindly? If there is any position that ages kindly in the NBA it is the bigs. Duncan, Camby, Kurt Thomas, Mutombo, Karl Malone, and I am sure I can name another 5 if I think harder. Also Dirk in his prime, is better than any of those players in their prime so even if his production goes down a bit for the next 3 years, I believe he will rate higher than Bosh or Jordan. Also modern science/drugs/conditioning has kept the players in the game longer.

Point 2:
If Neal had kept Dirk, that extra spot (now filled by Jordan) could have been filled by another person in FA. He may or may not have found someone who ranked higher than Jordan. Most likely he won't, but let's say that he finds someone ranked 120 and has upside. Having the 9th and 120th heavily outweighs the 48th and 96th.

Point 3:
You are not taking in the fact that Neal also paid apart of Dirk's salary. Like I said in my OP, he isn't really saving money until year 3. At which point, you would hope he is no longer rebuilding, and thus that year 3 savings really means little in terms of the plan and in value.

DmanofGod1 wrote:Also I know we don't want to think ahead but let's keep in mind what a huge year of free agency 2014 will be when Pitt was able to drop a 25 mil 36 yr old off his salary.

He can now go after young players that can't be matched

For example a team that might have
John Wall
Evan Turner
Derrick Favors
Al Horford &
Derrick Favors
But can only match two of them...

None of my players EVER get traded or EVER leave me muahahaa

Point #1: Well typically, positions that play inside like PF & C are tougher on the player's bodies. Are there anomalies? Yes, but typically that's the case.

Point #2: If Pitt wins his current bids, he still needs 2 more players even with Bosh and Jordan to field a suitable starting 12...i'm not even talking the rostered 15
FA left in the top 120 that are available
Jason Terry
Al Harrington
Trevor Ariza
Emeka Okafur

Where is this imaginary player you speak of?
And as you can imagine, it only gets more questionable the higher you go.

Point #3 - Neal isn't going to win it all this year but he did gain 2 mil in salary space which he can use to sign that imaginary top 120 player with upside.

Do you really think Pittsburgh will be done rebuilding after this year? In other words, he can win it all next year huh? I believe he will be competitive next year but to win it all would be a bit ...overzealous. He will need that offseason after year 2 to be done rebuilding like you said. ...which is why dropping 36 year old Dirk's 25 mil salary (a 25 mil 36 yr old Dirk won't be taking anyone to the championship) and using that money to sign away Favors and Evan Turner will be huge and thus...

Rebuilding complete like you said

Also to say that Dirk is in his prime at 33 but that DeAndre Jordan has hit his ceiling at 24....

It's a bit presumptuous. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Jordan's #s have improved every year.

Dirk = 3 years and retiring.

Bosh = 2 years plus rfa rights.

Dirk is better than Bosh but Bosh puts up good numbers as well. 3 years of the better guy or 2 plus controlling the guy for maybe up to 5 or 7 total?? With that, Bosh is almost equal to Dirk alone in long term value, imo.

I knew I had to give more though and gave a nice two year plus RFA cheap piece in DeAndre.

Depth and long term control go to Neal, Short term boost to AZ.

I will really feel it in year 3, as that max money is pretty steep. But that's the price for trying to add accolades to my signature.

Neal is new and I want him to stick around. There was never any intention to fuck him over. And that is something I did not do. I helped him with pieces he could for his process and he helped me with what I needed. THAT is how trades are made. Mutual needs being filled.

If Dirk was like 26/10 vs Bosh 18/8, maybe all this is moot and you have a point. But 21/6 vs 19/8 says slow down buddy. LOLOLOL.

In any event, I am excited that I beat other 'contenders' to Dirk and helped a new owner make a roster more flexible and 'his' .. By talking to Neal a bit and knowing he has a good friend in Dustin, I am confident in his ability to not only make a trade but in following thru on his plan to get his franchise in better shape.

The end.

Point 1- if it is tougher on the bigs, then name non-bigs that put up fantasy worthy numbers after the age of 33+. Maybe I am overlooking some smaller players, but I still think bigs age better than smalls. Besides, either way, my real point here is that the players play longer now and produce big or small.

Point 2- We haven't even hit the preseason yet. More people are signed during the season than before the season. It isn't like your team is locked after October. Lin/Parsons just off the top of the head, but there are more that play well and are worthy of roster spots.

Point 3- I didn't say that he should be in championship mode after this year. But after year 2, he should be ready get into the playoffs, and in the playoffs you are basically a contender.

I mean I see your points but I think you see mine.

You have a much better roster to build around and it's taken you how long to make the playoffs?

To think he is going to make the the playoffs next year with a core of Dirk, Jennings, Boozer, Brook Lopez and some rookies...

I just believe that offseason after next year is crucial for any team trying to put themselves over the top. I pity the team stuck with a 25 mil dirk.

JI, you and I have have chatted about this trade, and you know very well I have never said you are trying to "fuck over" Neal. I hope you are not suggesting that. I am sure if you were trying to fuck him over, Sam or Akron would of stepped in and said so. Also everyone has their own opinion. I know you didn't try to fuck him over because you even asked my opinion of the deal and you were hesitant to make the deal. So you obviously didn't intend that. Also, this whole thing isn't an exact science and everyone has their version of what is right and what is wrong. Just because I think it was wrong, doesn't mean that you did too, and thus took advantage of Neal.

Don't pity me!!!

I know full well it's gonna be tough holding Dirk at 25 then and possibly losing a FA or two of my own since Dirk plus Bron will eat a majority of my cap.

But unlike some people, I will pay now in order to WIN

And yea Deniz, we've went over it ad nauseam

Just wanted to make my thoughts public since you made yours.

Thanks clarifying a lil bit tho.

I'd have no problem in the deal being overturned if the majority of the league felt the way you did but you'd be hurting Neal more than you would be me and that wouldn't be right.

Flexibility is HUGE for him and should not be understated. Who knows how many people contacted him about Dirk. I'm guessing not many, if anyone at all. While he didn't put Dirk OTB publicly, it's not like others couldn't have seen that Pitts sorta needed to move Dirk and had a chance to message him inquiring. I really feel there wasn't/isn't much of a market but went in with a fair deal anyway.

Kobe, Nash, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd

compared to
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett


I mean if we are talking about 33 and above last year... only counting top 100 guys

Akron-

Haha I knew someone would bring up my team and how long I have been "re-building". The approach I had with my team didn't work out so well. I made a play for Wade too early and then had to get rid of him. Also the first draft I had, Bravo drafted for me and I didn't evaluate how to draft in keeper leagues very well. So I don't think my path should be followed....but please do so it can help me

"But unlike some people, I will pay now in order to WIN " Douche

Integrity wrote:Don't pity me!!!

I know full well it's gonna be tough holding Dirk at 25 then and possibly losing a FA or two of my own since Dirk plus Bron will eat a majority of my cap.

But unlike some people, I will pay now in order to WIN

Yea, JI you and I have diff philosophies and in baseball it has worked out for you but who made the playoffs in basketball last year and who didn't? (though this year will be much diff lol)

You are a great fantasy player and you make sacrifices to win now and I can respect that. Just not how I roll

Dalpsar wrote:Akron-

Haha I knew someone would bring up my team and how long I have been "re-building". The approach I had with my team didn't work out so well. I made a play for Wade too early and then had to get rid of him. Also the first draft I had, Bravo drafted for me and I didn't evaluate how to draft in keeper leagues very well. So I don't think my path should be followed....but please do so it can help me

Yea I know lol. Just saying it isn't that easy to make the playoffs in this competitive league. His team wasn't the right team to have an aging maxed out Dirk. Maybe he should have got more but JI is right... Not many teams calling for a maxed out 33 yr old Dirk.

I think the demand for dirk would be higher if he had waited until the trade deadline. A team with a lot of youngs may have been willing to trade for his services if that team had a solid start in the season and thought they could win it all. Besides, it isn't like he cleared a lot of cap space right now to make all of these major moves, waiting another 2 months shouldn't have been an issue. Also he didn't really publicly announce he wanted to trade dirk. Teams don't call, if they don't know No harm done trying to have a bidding war.

How dare you guys have a hoops discussion without me. Bastards!

There's only a handful of teams in this league that work even think of rostering a neat retirement Dirk. His stats has been in a steady graceful decline the past few seasons and he's on a max contract.

True, Pitts might have gotten an offer of picks and a decent player but from who? Darrin sure isn't giving up his picks for a maxed out player considering he just gave up a top 2 fantasy guy for that depth. Johnny is the only one nuts enough to flop the bird to the future and take on that much salary on an old guy who I could realistically see being similar to Bosh in stats but with a three pointer.

Waiting could have an adverse affect as well tho.

There could be a runaway train of a team or two and teams could feel it's not worth it all to get Dirk to try fighting and thus, Pitts is stuck.

We all have diff ways of playing it, but I know if I were in Pitts shoes, I'd have moved Dirk before the season began as well.

But then again, almost me in anyone's shoes means I'm in there trading and making deals because that's just how I roll

I do feel it's funny tho that the guy who kept MKG over Bron when Darrin was being silly is up in arms over Dirk not getting the young talent.

Tell you what Deniz, send me MKG and a couple small pieces and I'll send you Dirk and even give Pitts part of the haul you'll send me.

I'm waiting

MistaDuMa wrote:How dare you guys have a hoops discussion without me. Bastards!

WINNER!!!!!

DmanofGod1 wrote:Kobe, Nash, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd

compared to
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett


I mean if we are talking about 33 and above last year... only counting top 100 guys

Just wanted to repost since its awesome ...what, whaaaat

DmanofGod1 wrote:Kobe, Nash, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd

compared to
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett


I mean if we are talking about 33 and above last year... only counting top 100 guys

DC got owned

Integrity wrote:I do feel it's funny tho that the guy who kept MKG over Bron when Darrin was being silly is up in arms over Dirk not getting the young talent.

Tell you what Deniz, send me MKG and a couple small pieces and I'll send you Dirk and even give Pitts part of the haul you'll send me.

I'm waiting

My situation is a little different than Pitts situation. My team is on the uptick. As I have told you 18 times, but for some reason you either don't understand or you just like stir shit up (as noted with that "Darrin being silly" comment above), I would package my guys for top tier players ONLY IF my current build doesn't improve on last year. Hence my mission is not to make any drastic moves until I see how the team performs. So keeping that in mind, my offer to Darrin, was nothing more than testing the waters. I almost knew that he wouldn't want it, but I only threw it out there because he didn't like any of the offers he had at the time. So try to keep things in context, next time you try to make me look like a fool.

I know that you don't like the way I manage my team, but I get satisfaction from seeing my players develop and thus my team develop. I know that this isn't important to you, but it is to me.

DmanofGod1 wrote:

DmanofGod1 wrote:Kobe, Nash, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd

compared to
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett


I mean if we are talking about 33 and above last year... only counting top 100 guys

Just wanted to repost since its awesome ...what, whaaaat

Yes you are right about more smaller players last longer than larger players, I stand corrected. However, it still doesn't take away from my main point, that being the fact that in this day and age more players in general will play until their mid/late 30's than they did back in the 80's/90's.

Again Deniz,

It's fine what you do with YOUR team as that is how YOU see it.

But it is also just funny that you see Dirk for Bosh/Deandre as unfair when you wouldn't do Ibaka/MKG for BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD and make no mistake, Lebron is better than Durant.

So, that sorta thinking does undermine your opinion of this. If you wouldn't do you young player plus other player for best player, how can we expect to believe that Bosh/Deandre for Dirk is really that bad???

Which is why I threw the joke in.

I have one word for that, it is called circumstance. If you don't understand that, then re-read my previous post. Also it wasn't just Ibaka and MKG for Lebron.