Philly/Mich Hoops

Philly Sends


2015 PHI 1st rounder
2015 LV 1st rounder
2014 1st rounder (Philly's 3rd worst pick) (10th overall or better)  (Condition now that Philly must keep at least 3 1st rounders)

Michigan Sends


2014 MI 1st rounder*

*Condition: If the Michigan pick falls between picks 2-4, Michigan has the option to reverse this trade and obtain his 2014 pick.  If the Michigan pick falls into the #1 position then Michigan has the option to trade back these 3 first rounders for Philly's 2nd best pick in 2014 if he so chooses.

accept

i really don't like these trades.

Basically it just freezes 1st rounders to a team and making them untradable.  

I think we should have a discussion about this.  Now we have 3 2014 picks that are froze and 2 in 2015.  

If you have conditions they should go with the pick, not with the team imo but even in this trade, the 3 picks are tied together.  

It's getting out of control.  If you are gonna trade, just trade lol.

trade n keep it as backroom deal

I think I just might have opened pandoras box on this lol

Well it is essentially a gentlemen's agreement. There doesn't really have to be any conditions but this just makes it official and both of us don't have to worry about the other one changing their mind on certain parts of the agreement

DmanofGod1 wrote:i really don't like these trades.

Basically it just freezes 1st rounders to a team and making them untradable.  

I think we should have a discussion about this.  Now we have 3 2014 picks that are froze and 2 in 2015.  

If you have conditions they should go with the pick, not with the team imo but even in this trade, the 3 picks are tied together.  

It's getting out of control.  If you are gonna trade, just trade lol.

trades like this give me headaches!

Also the 3 picks sent to Brian can be moved by him if he so chooses. These  are all options.  If he would like to keep those 3 picks intact then I am offering him a potential future deal for them in return.

It's true, you guys could do a behind closed doors deal but even then...you are essentially freezing picks to a team.  What if something happens and a new owner takes over?  Darrin and Brian have been around for a while but we've seen stranger things.  Jay, Cory and heck...even the creator of the site went from being dependable owners to gone.  You are talking about freezing picks two years from now?!  A lot can freaking happen in that time.    

We will have to get Sam to weigh in on this but it's my opinion that conditions on picks should be minimal if done at all.  And by minimal i mean conditions should always go with the pick, not with the team and only individually, not packaged together essentially freezing them together as a package.

I do see why Darrin did this tho, as he's doing EVERYTHING to get Wiggins, while it's apparent Brian is trying to make sure he can still get the 2nd pick.

Maybe a gentleman's side agreement woulda been best, but I also see how he wanted to publicly reassure him.

As far as stipulations as a whole go, usually top 3 protected type stuff are what is done so if we do impose limits on stips, maybe it should be to that?

In which case, the change here would give Brian protection if the pick is 2 or 3.

Sam's call on what to do, but these guys worked very hard on this and are the type that both won't deal what they have so I'd let this one go, but have all future deals be limited to Top 3 or so protection, or something minor like that.

It's not about that.  Whether they worked hard has nothing to do with it.  It's about freezing assets to teams.  Too much can happen in two years especially in a fantasy leagues. 

Sam's given me approval rights and atm I'm just not going to approve it.     

I'm fine deferring to Sam but imo if Darrin wants the pick, then trade for the pick.  I'm not putting ghost 1st rounders on any team any more.    

IMO
1) All 1st round picks must be labeled in order for the trade to be legal.  
2)  If there are stipulations, then stipulations must go with the pick individually.

This basically insures that all assets are moveable.  That way the owner always has the choice to move them or not move them.  I place the emphasis on choice.  An owner though should never have his hand forced by taking over a team with assets that don't give him any option because of what the previous owner did.

Too tired and I'll comment more later but I think a possible rework can be made here.

Yea, I agree the freezing of assets is more important than how hard a team worked to accomplish a deal.

What I meant was that they worked very hard on these conditions and it seems like they will be able to easily meet them.

I understand the greater good of the league is what should be first n foremost.

Not sure what your proposed rework type frame is, but I was thinking something like (1) 3rd lowest 2014 1 (allowable since other 2 are) (2) 2014 mi 1 is (pick 2/3) protected (allowable since top 3 protection is pretty much standard type conditions)

I think with the 2014 MI 1 having a condition attached to it, it doesn't necessarily freeze up the assets on Brian's team as he can freely move them, but in doing so, gives away his condition on the MI 1, but that'd be his right.

With Darrin holding the MI 1, that pick isn't frozen as if he moves it, the conditions attached to it follow.

I don't see how this trade freezes any assets.  I would be able to trade the MICH 1 2014 if i so choose with the condition attached to the pick that it is redeemable by this package after the draft lottery.  Brian on the other hand is free to go and trade away any of these 3 assets which in turn would void the optional condition placed on them.  Also this so called "freezing" wouldn't be over the course of 2 years, it would be less than a year away following the 2014 draft lottery.

I obviously plan on keeping the Michigan pick and all my picks until the lottery (unless I am allowed to trade them based on placement (i.e worst, 2nd worst, 3rd worst, etc.)

Which part of the trade needs to be revised?  The top 3 protected part or the 3rd worst pick part?

We have had top 3 protected in the past if i remember correctly and this is just a spin off that.

Yea, that's true about MI 1 Darrin but the trade now freezes

1) 3 1st rounders to your team
2) 3 1st rounders to Michigan as he needs all 3 to trade to get back his pick or your best pick if MI gets #1

I don't forsee you trading your 1st rounders as you want that #1 pick in Wiggins but if something happens to you or Brian, you have these picks that the next owner doesn't have the choice to trade because they've become unmoveable (frozen).

I believe we can make this work where the conditions go with the pick.

For example
Michigan receives
2014 AK 1* (comes with the option to be swapped for DC 1, LV 1, AZ 1, SYN 1, LA 1, LON 1, PHI 1, MI 1) up until the day of the draft. #1 pick protected. 

That was extreme but I'm sure you can be creative with something like that.  This makes sure the value goes with the assets, not with the owner.  And it prevents ghost 1st rounders being put on people's teams where we can't even label it. 

Let's just say Brian impregnates Taylor Swift and his life just gets crazy and he bows out. (It can happen)  The next owner says, #2 pick...i don't want the #2 pick.  The draft sucks except for Wiggins.  He now has a very valuable asset on his team with the AK 1* that can be traded to acquire a player that allows him to build the team how he wants.  

Again, I don't fear you or Brian not being here next year but stranger things have happened.  This just has to be installed for caution and the betterment of the league.  Better to prevent a problem than not be ready for it.

You understand what I'm saying?

So, put a condition on the 2014 pick, but leave the 2015 ones totally free??

The thing about that tho, is Darrin is only allowing the swap if he gets Wiggins at 1 and has the 2nd pick, so thus, Brian can either swap all 3 back for pick 2 or keep what he has.

And like we've both said, if he, or new owner, trades before next yr's lotto, all conditions are off

I was being extreme.  Give value to all three picks. But now that I'm looking at more...yea...not getting back the other picks makes about sense.  

In fact now that I study the trade a little more, I don't even understand it.  Darrin is trying to put stipulations on everything to make sure he gets the #1 pick but still gets the SAME value back for the #2?!  wtf?!

Darrin is basically swapping a pick that he knows for sure doesn't get #1 (as the conditions state) for a pick that could possibly be #1 (MI 1 with no stipulations) and he doesn't give up a single thing?!  He gets back everything he traded for the possible #1 pick?!  

Yea...this trade definitely isn't gonna fly with me. I'm not allowing Darrin to get a possible #1 pick for a pick that he knows won't be #1 straight up.  Those conditions are ridiculous.  If Michigan wants to trade his possible #1 for 3 1st rounders, then trade it for 3 1st rounders.     

It totally makes sense that 
Philly gets
MI 1

Michigan gets
2014 AK 1* (with stipulations stated)
2015 PHI 1
2015 LV 1

If Darrin wants to rule out practically all risk, he has to pay for it.  He doesn't get it for free.  And like I said, all conditions go with picks individually.

What I see is that Darrin is giving Brian assurance that he can still net the 2nd overall pick IF he gives back everything for pick 2 (if mich pick isnt 1)

So thus, Darrin basically gives himself total assurance that he does get Wiggins, but gives Brian a way to get the 2nd pick possibly too.

Darrin prob taking a lil more risk (since he'll likely get Wiggins or 2nd pick for sure anyway) but hes doing EVERYTHING in his power to get Wiggins, even if it means assuring Brian he can get the 2nd pick for all 3 rd1s back (only if Brian wants that, tho as brian can opt to keep the 3 1s)

or well, not more risk...as you're right in him guaranteeing wiggins does trump all, but i mean, he's risking that one of his other picks doesnt get 1st overall, so thus, overpaying for whatever mich pick lands

and fuck, this wiggins guy better be lebron 2.0 for all this headache!!

What risk is Darrin taking?  Help me understand that.

Brian is basically ruling himself out of any chance at the #1 pick so he can get the #2 pick?  I don't understand.

His pick was #2 this year... and was supposed to be #1...  at worst it's #4...  

I just really don't understand what risk Darrin is taking.

well, the risk i see for darrin is that if brian's pick falls to 2 or 4 or so, then he's giving up 3 1s for that pick and not the number 1 as its not up to him, but brian if he swaps later so if mich pick is 4th, brian wisely opts to keep 3 1s over pick 4

of course tho, the wiggins 'guarantee' trumps that tho..

now, let's all load mich with good n cheap stars so that pick is 11th or 12th and darrin really overpays!! hahaha

but, yea, im out the thread now....dan/sam/thai/etc, chime in guys!!

okay i can see that but atm this is how i see it

Brian, give me your #1 pick.  Oh it turns out to not be #1, well give me ALL my stuff back.    

But unless I hear different from Sam, Dan or others

Veto (and I don't veto easily)

Reasons
1) I'm not putting ghost picks on the contract page anymore, that's lame
2) Making assets unmovable and therefore limiting the league's flexibility to be attractive to future owners.   
3) the Ridiculous ability to get Wiggins straight up for the #2 pick.  The value of MI 1 is clearly the ability to be #1 as stated by the conditions.  Receiving back the same value for the #2 pick (who is #2, do we know?..no we don't) is not acceptable.  

I will clearly give way to Sam if he overturns me but I think these are all valid reasons and I don't see him doing so.

We also need to nail down rules for stipulations on conditions.  Putting ghost 1st rounders on the contract page is a bit much lol.  

We can open a thread soon by i'm off to Columbus, OH this weekend and will really only be available by phone.  I've already mentioned my recommendations.

1) Conditions go with assets (picks) not teams...like we did with AZ 1 and 10 mil for DC1 
2) Conditions go individually to assets, not tying them together. 

(Although a possible AK1* - has the option of being swapped along with a 2015 1st for DC 1.  That way, picks aren't SPECIFICALLY tied together but can still have options as another 1st can always be acquired.)  

Open to suggestions.

Brian and I will talk it over and see what he wants to do. The condition with the pick sounds like a great idea to keep the "ghost" picks from getting out of hand haha

Also predicting the future is what fantasy sports essentially is but I don't think it holds weight when it comes to rule decisions. The conditions essentially give Brian the flexibility to choose whether a 2-4 pick is more valuable than the 3 1st rounders being sent. Without the conditions this would have passed no problem aside from the ghost pick. We know who is supposed to go number 1 next year but that is no where near guaranteed as is saying certain future players have more value than others before they have even stepped onto a college court yet. Every pick outside of the top 4 teams has a chance to be #1 as does every college player this next year has a chance to be #1 overall. We are all just trying to play the odds

You are right Darrin.  I would have not vetoed this trade based on reason #3 alone.  Just because I think this is a ridiculous trade for Brian and basically no risk for you does not give me enough reason to veto it.  

It was combined with the other two that made me make my final decision.

HEADACHE I SAID IT GIVES ME A HEADACHE!!!!

:crazy:I agree with the above. When I read this deal it gave me a headache. To complicated, when you have to study something and spend this much time on it just to figure out what a trade is and how it can be managed and different people think its something different I think the answers simple. Also agree, to many ramifications on teams if someone leaves.

I dont know why trades need to be complicated. Trade players, picks and dollars = done. No offense to anyone just how I feel about these things. No need for it.